About CDFL from Reid Goldsborough

About CFDL, from Reid Goldsborough:

"CoinForgeryDiscussionList (CFDL) This e-mail discussion group, a Yahoo Group, is the largest online discussion group devoted to solely counterfeit coins, but it's extremely controversial. Much discussion involves the condemnations of fakes from blatant eBay scammers, a useful service. Sometimes high-end mistakes from large auction houses are outted as well, another useful service, one that the coin establishment doesn't provide to collectors. Unfortunately, the information published there is frequently unreliable. One expert authenticator who used to participate in the group said the false positive rate is about 50 percent, meaning half of the coins labeled as fake are not. What's more, the actions of group leaders are frequently irrational. The group is populated to a disproportionate extent by amateur numismatists posing as experts, conspiracy theorists who feel that the coin establishment deliberately cheats collectors, and people with an agenda against other dealers. Criticism of dealers other than the group's founder is encouraged, but participants who express opinions opposed to the practices of those who run the group or in disagreement with their views are shouted down, censored, or banned from the group, with the most common rationale offered being that they're criminals employed by forgers. Yet the group's founder has admitted to salting the ancient coin marketplace with forgeries to "test" other dealers and feels that it's OK for dealers to sell forgeries as authentic coins if they can't easily be detected. He has said that the world's premier numismatic dealer organization, the International Association of Professional Numismatists (IAPN), is controlled by criminals. He set up another forgery discussion group through eBay but contended that eBay began censoring it after criminals lobbied and/or bribed eBay. To try to provide some balance against the irrationality, the hooliganism, and the errors of CFDL, a few seasoned numismatists occasionally participate in the group, but often they're just shouted down, with most having left. According to one ancient coin dealer active online, CFDL and its reputation are what's primarily responsible for many ancient coin dealers not participating in online dicussion groups in general. CFDL is an understandable reaction, or overreaction, to attempts by many in the numismatic establishment to damper discussion about the counterfeit issue. There are benefits to following CFDL, but if you do, take what's there with a large grain of salt. It can be an interesting window into the dark side of numismatics from a number of different angles."

 

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I wasn't even aware Yahoo Groups are still a thing. I ignored the CFDL in it's 'heyday' because of all the stuff mentioned above. The conspiracy theory mindset of the group was a huge turn-off.

 

Thank you @Roman Collector for clearing this up as best you can. It's still muddy waters, but at least now we know some information about this group and the people behind some recent posts.

 

Thank you @Roman Collector

 

I was a member of the CDFL for a while, too, but I got turned off by all the in-fighting and that fact that several members seemed to assume every ancient coin was a fake. Most of the other Yahoo discussion groups that I followed, like the uncleaned ancient coin groups, are now more of less defunct, but Moneta_L is still limping along and occasionally has interesting discussions.

 

I rarely take a condemnation by the CFDL as proof a coin is fake unless it is blatantly obvious. I've often wondered how many real coins were condemned. I think a few members of CFDL were banned from Forum for conspiracy theories and condemning authentic coins.

 

I have only just found the posts in your other thread RC which now helps make sense of what is going on here.
I have no idea who this individual is but from the posts I would say there is a fair chance that it is the crazy loon on e-bay who includes 100 paragraphs of off the chart nonsense with the listing.
I could be wrong but that is what jumped to mind as soon as I read the post.

 

I must admit, I have never heard of this organization!
Big heap of praise to Roman Collector for shedding some light on this.

 

I visited that group a number of years ago on Yahoo but quickly became turned off by the constant vitriolic infighting. There was no room for dissent and it seemed EVERY coin was a fake. There were sadly hints of paranoia that went along with some rants. It reminded me of Arthur Miller's "The Crucible", so I just stopped listening.

 

Sadly there are a lot of people out there who seem to believe that just about everything is fake. Sometimes they are right, a coin is indeed fake, but just as often they are wrong (and I have been wrong many times as well). But it would seem that some people have an agenda. In some cases there are those who despise collecting and would do anything to undermine the hobby.

In other cases there is the 'lemming' concept, people are just offering their opinions like a mina bird. They just heard it elsewhere and are not really contributing but passing on what they heard with no knowledge, experience or really anything to contribute.

Finally there is the profit motive. There are those who will condemn a coin only to reduce their competition for said item. I have seen many well known and respected dealers condemn a coin only to buy it after the value has been lowered to essentially nothing. Some of these people will also warn collectors at a show that dealer so and so all have fakes, be careful, I am only looking out for you. Then the collectors come back and buy from that dealer. Its sad, but it happens. All the time.

There are some people out there who for various reasons (legitimate and otherwise) actually believe that a certain series of coins are largely fake. They expound on how there are so many fakes are out there, to be careful, etc. but they dont know as much as they think, and they do much more damage to the hobby than perhaps they realize. Fakes are a problem, yes, but not nearly as large as some would have us think.

All of this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I know, it is very hard for beginners to really know all this, to process all the data, good and bad. But ultimately I have always said that the best defense is knowledge. Buy books, read them. Know what it is you are collecting. Look through as many sources as you can online (which is uber easy and costs nothing in this new world), including such Ebay. Ebay can often tell us what to look out for as most of the fakes currently sold in the world are there (not that I am saying one should stay away from that venue as there are many more genuine coins for sale there than fake).

As for Yahoo Groups. Some (but very few) of us have been online since the inception of the WWW (which is different from the internet). Maybe some of us remember when e-mail was invented, BBS services, FTP, etc. Yahoo Groups was just an evolution from all the origins but more from Newsgroups (which still exist, are kind of like CT, but are frequented but few). They used to operate strictly via e-mail, then by website.

A while back I received an e-mail from one of those groups. I hit the 'reply' button with a message with something akin to 'you know these groups are dead, right?'. I received something like three replies, 'no, there is still someone here', but those were the only messages in months. Groups like Moneta-L (and their predecessor Numism-L) are just about completely dead. While they still have subscribers, there isnt anyone reading or contributing. They are dead. Including CDFL.

As far as I know the most active place to discuss ancient coins is right here on CT and Forum. Sure, there are a couple Facebook groups, but they are not what we all think. I suppose there might be a Reddit, but its not what it is here.

 

You might be right. I suspect this is just another proxy name for a troll member here who has harassed other members, including a moderator, under other short-lived proxy names.

The ignore button is a most useful function.

 

Well said Ken.

 

We had a time here in Canada, about 10 years ago, nobody would accept legal tender $100 bills. Always got the same story that most where fakes, and they would not take them. I got really fed up with this, since I knew the truth about this phoney scare. In all of Canada, 18 counterfeit $100 bills where detected that year....out of tens of millions printed. Its the same with collector coins, legitimite auction houses rarely get caught with having fakes in their auction inventory.

 

As the current owner of Uncleaned Ancient Coins (among other yahoo groups) I must take some exception to calling UAC "defunct". True, traffic is way down from the heyday of the early aughts, but UAC and sibling group Ancient Peddler are still alive. Ancient Peddler still runs its friendly Sunday afternoon auctions successfully on alternating Sundays and a core group of friends who have been together for over a decade are still active and mutually supportive. As has always been the case, there is a great deal of overlap between the memberships of UAC & AP. Although I have proposed merging the two groups formally, enough folks like things the way they are for the two groups to continue, each in its own niche.
Social media may grind inexorably onward, but ya know, some people still write personal letters on paper and call old friends on - clutch the pearls! - landline phones, too. Many folks still like the "open-ended chat" format of full-group communication by email.
I'd term it just a bit premature to count things as "down and out" until they actually end.

 

Now you are making me feel really ancient. I still write letters/Christmas cards/birthday cards. I dislike texting so rarely use it. I'd rather call and talk to my friends and family. I don't even know what hashtag-something means. I don't have facebook, twitter or any other social media accounts. I still go outside and talk with neighbors and I'm friendly with my post lady and the waste/garbage collectors. I guess I'm just a caveman

 

#oldschool

 

I am definately with you, I do not even have a smartphone. I like driving 60s muscle cars, no idea about twitter/ apps/ social media....
I cannot stand modern banknotes/ coinage/ art/ music....
But....I do love watching stuff on my 60 " smart TV

 

The older I get, the less I seem to need. I have no doubt that when the 'youngsters' among us are our age they will reminisce about things like Facebook, Twitter and all that nonsense (which will not be nonsense to them).

 

I actually have a fully functional, revamped candlestick phone from the 1920's in my study. I am not exaggerating when I say it has the best sound/reception!

 

Can it place a call or only receive?

The way I see it, our needs don't change but we become more skilled at recognizing the difference between needs and desires.