I think I know the answer, but this isn’t my area of knowledge. Please let me know what you think about these two coins. An explanation would also be appreciated. Both show edge lettering. 1791 Liverpool Halfpenny, diameter appx 30mm 1789 Irish Mine Company diameter appx 28mm @britannia40 @TheFinn @Hiddendragon you gentlemen might be able to help.
It's unlikely that either of these are repros. Neither one is particularly scarce which isn't reason enough. I didn't look them up to confirm this but I have an example of each in my collection. There are many varieties of both of these. Would need to know the edge lettering to confirm which variety they are. The edge lettering is a good sign of authenticity also. IMHO if they are repros then they are contemporary.
I won’t be able to get you the edge letting until Saturday or Sunday, but I will be sure to do that. They just seemed to be in such nice condition for something so old. It would be awesome if they’re either original or a contemptorary counterfeit. Those are cool too.
The Irish mine coin looks polished, maybe not harshly. Wouldn't bother me though if it turns out to be original or a contemporary counterfeit. Can you imagine an economy where it pays to make contemporary counterfeit half-pennies? Days gone by. Steve
I can only imagine! Crazy to think of how far money went back then. I agree that the Irish mines appears to be polished. I’ll inspect them closer when I’m able to pull them out again.
@Conder101 I’m tagging you simply because of your username. I’ll get more info in a few days, but I’ll take any info I can.
Both look original, and I have no reason to believe they would be "reproductions". LOTS of Conders survived in pristine mint condition (The ones largely made for collectors). Others saw a lot of circulation for local exchange because of the huge shortages of small copper coinage in the era. These look to have seen some honest circulation.
PS -- The 1791 dated token will likely have edge lettering of "PAYABLE AT THE WAREHOUSE OF THOMAS CLARKE . X . X ." -- and would be indexed in the Dalton & Hamer guide as Lancashire County, DH-60 through DH-94 - Book here. Lots of variants based on token markers... The 1789 dated token is from Ireland, County Wicklow, and will likely have edge lettering of "PAYABLE IN CRONBANE LODGE OR IN DUBLIN". It is also indexed in Dalton & Hamer. You can find that section of the book here. Again, a LOT of variants of this design. Yours should be identified as somewhere between DH-3 to DH-34 for Wicklow.
Thank you so much for the reply. I can vouch for the 1789 reading as you said. I’ll have to check the 1791 Friday or Saturday. Having circulated editions makes me very happy. I like coins that have a history to them and if these actually got used, then they have one of their own. These two coins came with this one here: If only coins could talk!
They are genuine and neither contemporary counterfeits or modern copies. Both are common, the first piece is Lancashire 64 from the city of Liverpool, county of Lancashire. The second is Wicklow 23.
Thank you so much for the feedback. I’m floored to hear these are original coins. I’m not concerned about value, but being able to connect them with history.
A little more information on the Lancashire piece, it was made for Thomas Clarke. No one is sure exactly what his business was, but he must have needed a lot of coinage. There were 17 varieties of the 1791 half pennies produced with a mintage of 1,000,000 pieces. Three varieties are very rare (63, 74, and 75) so most of the varieties would have an average mintage about the same as yours, somewhere around 75,000 coins. He also had 5 varieties produced with the same design in 1792. These coins must have circulated very well in Liverpool because they attracted heavy counterfeiting with fakes being made dated 1791, 92, 93, and 94. Then William Lutyche of Birmingham got ahold of the dies and produced 15 more muled varieties for sale to collectors. Over all this series has 23 genuine varieties, 26 fake varieties, and 15 muled varieties. One interesting fake is a 1791 Lancashire 79 that comes with at least 12 different edge varieties. (I have at least three of them. I have two of the Lanc 64's, an AU coin, and one that was altered to try and pass it as the very rare Lanc 63.) That is one of the nice things about the Conder token series. If you don't insist on uncirculated pieces you can build a large collection are a fairly small cost. Coins like you have can often be less than $20 apiece (What I was paying for MS pieces back in 1997.) XF-AU often for under $50. not bad for decent coppers that are almost 230 years old
Very cool! There’s so much information hidden in every one of these coins. It’s great that they can be had at such a low price. It’s also crazy that there are more fake types than originals. I need to hide these before I start trying to collect more. My collection is too wide as it is! These will stay in my main collection for a long time. Maybe I’ll look into getting more down the road.
