Old Coin This reminds me of some of the so called Christ/Jesus coins. I've seen similar coins but not one exactly like yours. There are a few varieties shown here: Code: [/URL][URL]http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1023&pos=0[/URL][URL="http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1023&pos=0"] Also look here: Code: [/URL][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Bulgarian_Coins[/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Bulgarian_Coins"] You should notice similarities but none are identical. I will keep my toadie eyes open for information on your coin. Ribbit, Toad :smile BTW: On a personal note, I do not believe most of the Christ/Jesus coins are of him but rather a Ruler depicting himself as being holy. Many coins, such as yours, has one person on one side (obverse) and two on the other (reverse). I believe the obverse is the Ruler and the reverse is the Ruler "passing the torch" to his son/new ruler, because the one on the obverse, and one of the two on the reverse, have a halo. Thus, they are the same person but the non-halo'd person is someone else (the son/new ruler). It is said that the person on the obverse is holding a bible but I believe that to be the written laws of that Ruler and not the bible. But all of this is my opinion, you can call it what you want. :smile Ribbit - Ribbit - Ribbit
My take on it. Two guys on the front: One guy is a ruler of some kind, and the other is a Holy person (notice the Halo). Could be Christ. Looks like there is a staff in Holy person's hand. Guy on back probably some kind of ruler, as no halo is present I believe. There is some Latin there, so that should help someone decifer something.
You need to remember how rulers thought of themselves back then (more than 1000 years ago). They ruled the people and the people had to serve/worship their ruler (remember the Romans). So with that, would a egotistical ruler have his likeness only once on the coin and someone else's twice or his likeness twice and someone else's once? Anotherwords, would that egotistical ruler place himself below anyone else? Nope! They were not only ruler but GOD and there was no one above them. So, the person depicted twice on the coin, was the ruler and the other person was beneath them (aka: next in line to the throne). Second, the staff. Rulers had staffs back then, if'n you didn't know that. They were called their COLORS (or other similar term). They somewhat depict them in some of the modern movies. Remember Braveheart? Ribbit, Toad :smile
Sorry, Mr Toad, but you're wrong. That most certainly is Christ. Same as on most Byzantine coins. As audacious it may seem to you to show Christ on a coin, its twice as audacious to portray yourself as him! AR Grosso of Antonio Venier, Doge of Venice. 1382-1400 Obv legend: ANTO VENERIO SM VENETI Obv design: Christ handing investiture banner to the Doge Rev legend: TIBI LAVS 7 GLORIA Rev design: Christ enthroned ref: Paolucci, p.37
Christ & God I did not say they portray themselve's as Christ but rather, GOD. Please read more carefully! Christ is not God and God is not Christ. They are two different entities, unless your religion practices otherwise then that becomes opinion but I do believe I said it was my opinion earlier, you never used that word. Many rulers of old, protrayed themself as God. It dates back before written time. So, for a ruler to put their likeness on a coin and to place a halo above their head, that's what's known as EGOTISTICAL and I do believe I used that word several times and it easily defines many rulers of the past and even some of the present. If the coin has writing on it that says the person is Christ, then there wouldn't be any/much argument but if all there is to go by is "word of mouth" then the matter can be argued and word of mouth can also include written words (see the New Testament for a perfect example). I do not know if the coin has writing on it that stipulates the halo'd person is Christ, do you? But if the halo'd person is Christ, what is Christ doing with the second person on the reverse and who is the second person? Is that the King being ORDAINED by Christ/God? If that's the case, I believe the word EGOTISTICAL would come into play again. We all have an opinion when it comes to Christ/God so I guess the old saying about never mixing politics and religion applies to numismatics as well. Ribbit, Toad :smile Ps: Someone once wrote a tale about a wonderous island he called Atlantis. Was that place real or was this his first attempt at writing fiction? There have been many tales of fiction that were and still are believed today, but have since been proven to be fiction.
As I stated in the attribution, the reverse depicts the Doge being handed the investiture banner by Christ. This symbolizes that the Doge is essentially being ordained, as you said, by Christ. Perhaps it is you that should read more carefully? No offense, but you seriously need to do some research before you post. While attributions to a diety may be difficult (even impossible) on earlier Roman Greek coins, there is no doubt among ANYONE (except maybe you?) that the nimbate figures on these Venetian and Byzantine coins are Christ. In fact, there are were official Byzantine documents stating that the figure is Christ. "Rulers of old" may have portrayed themselves as a god (and many Roman emperors were, in fact, diefied) but none portrayed themselves as the Judeo-Christian God you implied by your use of capital letters. Regardless, the doges of Venice were not absolute rulers by any means. They were elected (and therefor controlled) officials. In the case of Byzantium, the Emperor would clearly have had trouble portraying himself as any SORT of a diety - there were open rebellions because of the use of Christ as himself on the coinage!!! Before this thread gets locked and relegated to the Politics & Religion section, I want to point out that this isn't a discussion on current religion or politics.
Was a Doge like a Governor? Ribbit, Toad :smile Ps: I too will stipulate this thread isn't discussing religion, although we had to "touch" upon it because of the nature of the coin in this discussion.
More powerful than a governor. Because Venice was a city-state, the Doge was the highest power. This may help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge_of_Venice
Christ or Saint . . . that is the question??? On the wikipedia link, it shows a coin with a halo'd person and it says it was Saint Mark. Therefore, coins with a halo'd person on them aren't always Christ but could be a "holy" person like a saint. So, is the coin in this discussion Christ or a Saint? Ribbit, Toad :smile
Doh! I misread my source, my apologies. That would be St Mark on the reverse, and he is nimbate. I completely forgot about the different types of nimbus. Christ's has more of a background to it, others (including the saints, my bad) tend to be a simple beaded half-circle. That clear things up, then?
I really have no clue about these ancient coins, I was just voicing my opinion in my "ps" remark but I really have learned a lot with this discussion because it has forced me to research ancient coins so now I have a little better understanding of them but I have a lot more to learn. Ribbit, Toad :smile
Keep reading up, then. There's a TON of resources online, if you know where to look. Check out the Resources section. FYI - this is more of a "medieval" coin than an ancient one. But, of course, definitions vary.
