1909 S VDB Population Figures

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Coinman1981, Jan 19, 2010.

  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Folks the problem is that people tend to equate rarity with value, if a coin is valuable (meaning expensive) then that coin is called rare. The 1909-S VDB cent is expensive - in any grade. But when thousands and thousands of a coin exist - how can that possibly be thought of as being rare ?

    The two things - rarity & expense - have nothing to do with each other. Sure there are examples of coins that really are rare - that are expensive. But there are even more examples of coins that are really rare - that are not expensive at all.

    For example, I used to own several coins where less than 5 are known to even exist, in any grade or condition - and I paid less $200 for some of them.

    So just because something is expensive, that doesn't mean it is rare. And just because something is rare, that doesn't mean it is expensive.

    Absolute rarity is determined by how many of a given coin exist - in any grade or condition.

    Conditional rarity is determined by how many of a given coin exist in a given grade - but only that grade. For example, there are coins that are graded as PO 1 that are far more rare in a conditional sense than those examples graded as MS. The reverse is also true.

    Value, or the price of the coin is determined by how many people want to own that coin. If there are more people who want to own it than there are examples to go around - then that coin is expensive.

    If there are fewer people who want own a coin than there are examples to go around - then that coin is inexpensive.

    And people become conditioned to believing things that are not true simply because they hear it and read it so much. Just like with the 1909-S VDB cent - the coin is not even close to being rare. It's not even scarce, it is very common in fact. But because every ad you see, every time somebody writes about in article or on a forum, the coin is refered to as rare. So people have become conditioned to thinking that the coin is rare. When in fact it isn't at all.

    This is where knowledge comes in. If you have the knowledge, then you KNOW the coin is not rare. If you do not have knowledge, then you believe what you hear and read that everybody else says.
     
    leeg and LA_Geezer like this.
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  3. DoK U Mint

    DoK U Mint In Odd we Trust

    Desire~

    Let's try a new word.

    Desire~

    Every Whitman without that gaping hole being filled creates a WANT for the not so Rare, always available 1909 S VDB.

    It's just a gapping hole that can be filled at any given time with exceptional expenditure.

    So, NO. Not rare, in fact quite common for those that have All of them.
     
    giorgio11 likes this.
  4. Steve Woods

    Steve Woods New Member

    I bought one today (my second one), cracked it out of the slab and filled that hole in my little blue Whitman folder, something that I have been wanting to do for 57 years! A childhood dream come true...
     
  5. giorgio11

    giorgio11 Senior Numismatist

    1c 1909-S VDB MS65BN CAC 34725754 Trueview.jpg

    I don't disagree in the least with what GDJSMP says above concerning rarity and value of the 1909-S VDB. But I would add, it is also famous. Notorious. A sensation. A notable coin issue almost from the day it was minted. People lined up in 1909 at Treasury offices to buy examples of the 1909 VDB and 1909-S VDB coins, and the hubs were redone in short order to remove the offending V.D.B. initials.

    Even many casual collectors and even non-collectors have heard of the "SVDB" cents, and there are still legions of collectors (like me) who grew up filling the old Whitman blue folders with circulated Wheaties, except for that mythical, always-empty hole, fourth from the left on the top row. It is the reason why I named my company "VDB Coins," and while that may be a mixed blessing (as I trade in a lot of other numismatic items as well), it is certainly memorable.

    And everyone wants one! Above is a nice Gem Brown PCGS CAC example that a longtime Lincoln collector (brother of one of my longtime customers) bought from me a few months back. It was, I think, the first certified Lincoln he had ever bought, and you could have knocked me down with a feather when the check for $3,350 showed up in the mailbox.

    Congratulations to all of you who have gotten your prize 1909-S VDB cents. Please do yourself a favor and buy only certified (NGC/PCGS/ANACS) examples ... unless you are truly an expert (and a lot of you are kidding yourselves on that point).

    Kind regards,

    George
     
    chascat likes this.
  6. Southernman189

    Southernman189 Well-Known Member

    I have had one about 15 years uncert. though. I would guess with all the house fires and floods ect ect. that the 100,000 numbers would be pretty close but of course only a guess
     
  7. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    I paid $330 all-in for this example at a Bowers & Merena auction in 1988.

    The on-line present value calculators says that is the equivalent of $705 today - same purchasing power

    Bought raw, still raw today.

    Did I come out ahead?

    1909 s vdb lincoln cent obv1 N - 1.jpg 1909 s vdb lincoln cent rev1 N - 1.jpg
     
  8. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Writers, dealers and auction houses have used the word rare so much, it has programed folks to think of anything expensive to be rare. It will never change.
     
    Sunflower_Coins likes this.
  9. giorgio11

    giorgio11 Senior Numismatist

    @Eduard I think you did fine. You bought from a reputable seller, and it looks to be a great coin!

    Kind regards,

    George
     
    Eduard likes this.
  10. Steve Woods

    Steve Woods New Member

    I am intrigued by the 1909 S VDBs that were well circulated before being found in pocket change by some lucky person so many years ago. The two that I own, the one mentioned above cracked out of an ICG F12 holder and placed in that last empty hole in my Whitman folder and the one I've had for many years still in it's ANACS VF30 holder are well circulated but beautifully honest examples of a modest little "penny" that changed hands many times at face value. My local coin dealer has a very nice certified AU with lots of red that I wish I could afford. I thought about trading up with my VF30... but I just don't think I could do it.
     
  11. leeg

    leeg I Enjoy Toned Coins

    Could the same be said of the the 55 Double Die? Expensive Yes, Rare, No?
     
  12. giorgio11

    giorgio11 Senior Numismatist

    I think the 1955 Doubled Die is far rarer than the 1909-S VDB but the demand is considerably less, as a variety. The 55 DD is also really, truly rare in full Red and higher Mint State grades. No so the 1909-S VDB.

    Data: PCGS shows 1978 "grading events" (i.e. with potential duplications) for the 1909-S VDB in 64 RD and 65RD. For the 1955 DDO there are 194.

    Just a different situation IMHO, Lee. Not a first-year issue, not saved in anywhere near the same numbers.

    Kind regards,

    George
     
  13. leeg

    leeg I Enjoy Toned Coins

    All good points George.
     
    giorgio11 likes this.
  14. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    Bravo, sir!

    If there’s one thing that’s an absolute necessity in this hobby, even more so than knowledge, it’s the ability to be honest with oneself as to our true abilities. There’s no shame in not knowing something, but there certainly is (or should be) in convincing ourselves that we know more than we really do.
     
    giorgio11 likes this.
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