CAC Question

I have no experience collecting or grading gold coins other than Saints, but in most numismatic circles, friction in the fields typically relegates the coin to the circulated grades. All three of the examples that you have shown clearly show friction in the fields, yet all three are graded mint state by the TPGs. It seems clear to me that the TPGs and CAC are using a different standard than I would. Since you collect this series, can you enlighten us with some knowledge on how to grade these coins? In addition, the 3rd coin appears to have been cleaned.

 

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Have you added them all up, including all of the sub designations and gold stickers?

 

Truly Mint State Classic Head gold is very scarce to rare. There were almost no collectors in The United States when these pieces were issued. Coin collecting got started in the U.S. when the large cent series ended in 1857. What few collectors there were would have thought twice about putting away two or three days' wages in a gold coin. For the same money you could set aside a lot of half cents, cents, half dimes, dimes, and quarters.

The few true Mint State pieces that survive were products of happenstance. For example I have a true Mint State 1838-D $5 gold that was part of a family heirloom collection that sat in a New Hampshire attic many years. According to the family, a relative came home to New England from the southern goldfields in the 1800s with a group of coins, and that was one of them. It's one of two pieces that PCGS has graded MS-63. Pogue had the other one, and there are none graded higher.

Most of the high grade pieces that you see are graded MS-61 or 62 and are what most people would call "sliders." If you are going to collect this series in Choice AU, you will usually have to buy MS-61 or 62 graded coins. If you want true Uncs. you will usually have to buy MS-64 graded coins. Those pieces are seldom available, and the prices are extremely high because those coins are true condition rarities.

The 1838 quarter eagle that you identified as "cleaned" was in Hanson's collection. He sold it when he got a better one. I think that the 1838 in MS-63, CAC was lightly cleaned too. It comes with the territory when you collect these coins.

The 1835 is a low end Mint State coin in my opinion. You have to remember than you at extreme blow-ups these coins and that my photography often makes marks look bigger than they are.

For what it's worth my Classic Head Quarter Set is #2 on the PCGS registry behind Hanson's set. Harry Bass' coins are better, but he had what was often the best there is.

Collecting these coins is a lot different from collecting the St. Gaudens' $20 gold pieces. The "common dates" are very scarce in the high grades, and the better dates are extremely rare or nonexistent.

 

Gold stickers are essentially irrelevant for the overall number there are so few of them.

I've eye balled it enough to have a decent sense and may actually be over estimating it. For example Morgans have like 85k coins stickered and that's by far the biggest group. St Gaudens double eagles are at like 22k. Buffalos are at like 13k, Mercs under 4k, Barber quarters under 4k, Peace Dollars 15k, 22k Walkers, Like 20k Lincolns, Classic Commems are probably like 20k that ones to much effort to add up. All the most common series with stickers.

Trade dollars not even 1200, Capped bust quarters like 1k. Anyway the idea should be clear, even the biggest population series have consistently low numbers and most of these stickers are on lower grades. The harder older series have minuscule numbers.

I'm sure people will argue with me anyway

 

The bottom line is really kind of this, why use alts if you really believe what you say

 

It has been going on for years now.

 

Wanna prove that?

 

Until recently, PCGS explicitly included on one of their grading pages that eye appeal could add up to two points to the grade. That statement was modified to one recently. It wasn't as uncommon as you think to find three point upgrades in Coin Facts for rainbow toned coins.

 

I'm not sure who this is in reference to, but I do not have an alt if that comment was targeted at me.

 

So the answer to my question was, "no." Thank you.

 

Eye appeal is my #1 criterion. Remember that not all slabbed coins have gone to CAC. Looking at auction archives at Heritage and Great Collections one can easily see that coins with the CAC bean generally get the highest bids. However, there are many examples of superior coins within a given grade that don't have a bean on the slab. Bottom line, buy the coin first!

 

What does that mean ?

If a coin has great "eye appeal" but lots of nicks and scratches, then I presume it wouldn't have great eye appeal, right ?

 

I think that's what happened...and then owners submitted to CAC...and that coin then had both great eye appeal, was correct for the grade, AND got a CAC sticker.

 

It means that a MS63 Morgan with monster toning could, under the previously published guidelines, find its way into a MS65 holder. One of the Northern Lights coins ended up in a MS67 holder came from a MS64 holder. At the time there was also at least one or two appearances in Coin Facts of it in a MS65 holder too.

 

What is the grey sheet.? I am also not real sure what the CAC is either. Thanks

 

I've been collecting rainbow toned coins for over 15 years, and it was always extremely rare to see coins get more than a single grade bump for toning. In the last few years, the number of examples seems to be on the rise. You are claim of "its going on for years now" inferred that it is nothing new. If that were true, then why did the Morgan Dollar in question initially grade as an MS65+?

 

Inconsistency like everything else. The phrasing about a 2 point bump did appear in text on their website at one time. It appears to have been revised.

 

The grey sheet is a publication a dealer subscribes to with the trending prices on coins.
So say a coin is in Au. 50 grey sheet for that coin is $200. So you would offer the $200.+10% $220.

 

That isn't a good enough reason. Morgan Dollars are extremely easy to grade and the professional graders at PCGS aren't going to have a two point swing simply based on inconsistency. It is clear that this coin was given a huge grade bump the second time around due to the toning. The only plausible reason for the grade bump is that they have started to value grade toned coins rather than simply giving them a grade bump for eye appeal.

 

If coins with friction are graded as low mint state, how do one of these coins actually attain an AU55 or AU58 grade? I know that the TPGs use a different standard for classic head gold, but I'm just trying to understand it. It is extremely rare that I have a chance to have someone of your experience level to explain this to me. Any light you can shed would me greatly appreciated.