CAC Question

Gosh @ddddd. Didn't you know that CAC is always right? That's what some of the goons on the PCGS forum have literally said anyway. I guess we have no choice but to blindly abide by the gospel according to John and mother Laura.

 

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You're right. The services have done such a great job that no one even takes them at their word anymore, which is why so many people use CAC as a substitute grading service rather than its intended purpose to identify solid or high end for the grade. It is only a matter of time before they see that John is not perfect either. As I have said to you in the past, even with a 99% error rate, there are still literally thousands of coins stickered in error. Good luck blindly buying plastic and stickers!

Don't drink the Kool-Aid!

 

Sigh. More misinformation

 

From a multi-millionaire registry mogul himself:
"Sure, it sounds good to buy the coin and not the holder. but in reality that is not easily possible for most of the larger coin buyers like myself. I cannot grade. Sure, over all these years I have learned plenty but not enough to buy the coin and not the holder...."

So you can pay $84k for a Liberty Head Nickel but aren't good enough to grade it on your own? Instead he is relying blindly on plastic and stickers by his own admission. There are plenty more like him on the PCGS forums. Many, especially at the $5k per coin range and higher use CAC as a grading service. I'm not going to post every example.




"CAC is always correct."

 

Sigh

 

Because it's only you that want folks to fall into this hype.

 

I find it a little amusing to sit here are see this argument over and over again.

The bottom line is this, we all collect what we like and interests us. Everyone have different tastes. Me personally, I prefer slabbed coins when not buying in person because it gives me a little insurance that what I am buying is at least market reasonable. Obviously, I evaluate the coin itself and determine what it is worth to me...and pay accordingly. Sometimes the coin is worth more than "retail" and sometimes less. I purchase the coins I want for my collection.

Now...is there "value" in the slab and the sticker? I would say "yes there is." Does it make the coin itself more valuable...no.

Here's my take (and this is only my opinion which I am entitled to). A slabbed coin is a coin that comes with an expert opinion of it's grade. That expert's opinion is worth something. It's worth something because it essentially serves as a expert non-biased third party opinion on the coin. It makes it safer for the buyer and more liquid for the seller. There is value to that.

Now, I know a lot of people here will say "well, I don't sell coins so the slab means nothing to me." That maybe true, but that doesn't remove the fact that a slabbed coin is both a coin and an expert evaluation and that by taking that attitude you are potentially walking away from nice pieces.

Bottom line is, we all need to collect and purchase how we want to. Like I said before, I will typically buy only slabbed coins online unless it is low value or I trust the dealer.

 

Not true. Over the last eight or nine years, I have taken a strong interest in U.S. gold from 1795 to 1839. I put together a type set, and I completed a set of the $2.50 and $5.00 Classic Head gold pieces. One of the last coins I needed for Classic gold sets was an 1838 $2.50.

A dealer offered me one in a PCGS MS-63 CAC holder. The jump from MS-63 to 62 doubles the price. On top of that, the dealer added a couple thousand for the CAC sticker. It’s the kind of thing that CAC should catch if the coin is over graded. In this case the coin had rubs in the fields on both sides and was way short of MS-63. I have photos to prove this, and I examined the coin in person to confirm this.

My point is you have look at the coin yourself, and you are not sure of your grading skills, you need a trusted expert to look at it. A great many CAC approved coins are okay, but not all of them. CAC has marketing aspect to it also. You can’t blindly accept the green sticker.

 

Yes it is true. The vast majority of the time people say PCGS/CAC or NGC/CAC both made a mistake it is a personal taste issue and it isn't actually a mistake, many other times it's an issue with the person saying it.

Now that said okay lets say that coin was actually a mistake. That's 1. Only coin forum logic does a handful of actual mistakes mean something wide spread. Does one plane crash mean that flying is not possible? One car crash mean driving shouldn't happen? How far should we go with this logic from people trying to tear it down. Let's see the 10,000 plus actual mistakes that must be everywhere....

No one has ever said CAC is perfect, but this faulty logic of well I found a mistake once they must be doubted always would mean their is literally nothing in life you could trust and would have to be an expert in everything. That is what a lot of this is telling people if we follow the logic of this well once or here or there type thing.

 

Yes people, including a multi-millionaire registry player, have said that CAC is always correct. I already provided a screen shot to you, and you have been corrected many times now. Are you not capable of reading?

As for the rest of your word vomit, no one is trashing CAC. We are saying think for yourself, and do your due diligence and confirm. No one is perfect. Also buy the coin and not the holder or sticker. Instead of focusing so much on Mother Laura, it is probably best for you to go back to reading Mother Goose.

 

So many flavors and some choose to be salty. Just lol

 

Never mind, I see.

 

Not likely. Because said coin was also graded by PCGS or NGC.

For high-end, expensive coins I am willing to bet the accuracy rate of a TPG + CAC is probably accurate to within 1 grade (by any conservative, Old-Timer Standard) probably 99.999% of the time.

BTW, 99.99% means that only 1 coin out of 10,000 coins is misgraded (and by "misgraded" I think off by MORE than 1 number). So I doubt that CAC has graded millions of coins (is the total available at their website ?).

 

I think this particular coin highlights the recent trend by the TPGs to start rewarding dramatic rainbow toning with multiple point bumps rather than a single point which used to be the standard. If the TPGs have expanded the market grading of these coins, CAC may simply be playing catchup with the new trend. The same thing happened with that crazy toned Franklin Half Dollar that sold for over $100K last year.

While I don't believe that the TPGs change their numerical grading standards in cycles to boost submissions, they certainly have expanded the market grading aspects of grading, and boosting the grades for coins with dramatic rainbow toning certainly falls into that category.

Personally, I think this new trend is dangerous because it torpedoes the current valuation method for toned coins. In that past, rainbow toning would give a single point grade bump, but since the most prevalent rainbow toned coins are common date Morgan Dollars which are easy to find even at the premium gem grades, the single point grade bump usually had very little impact on the price of the coin. Instead, people would use the price guide for the numerical grade of the coin and they come to a premium in multiples of that price based on the quality of the toning and the assigned grade. It wouldn't be uncommon for the coin in question to sell for a 5-10X premium at the MS64 or MS65 level.

Recently, it seems that the TPGs, specifically PCGS, have started to attempt to value grade these coins rather than simply award a grade bump. So when this coin was resubmitted, they probably valued the coin over $1K, but less than $3K, hence the assigned grade of MS67+. If PCGS is actually trying to eliminate the toning premium by value grading coins, people who are unaware of this shift are going to get buried in coins by paying toning premiums for coins that are several points overgraded, strictly from a surface preservation grade.

 

It says something when a major national coin dealer (Legend Numismatics) is so perturbed by the number of upgrades evident in Coin Facts (by multiple images from multiple submissions) that it goes to PCGS to severely limit Coin Facts. A number of those coins resticker on re-submission. You're living in a fantasy world. Grading is inherently subjective and becomes even more so the higher you go where the differences between grades become more and more subtle.

 

I'm not an expert on all the ins-and-outs of the top echelons of the coin hobby, I freely admit.

Legends is Laura Sperber's outfit, right ? She boasts of submitting coins for re-grade so I don't know what she is doing trying to limit others. Maybe she thinks her coins are worthy and other's aren't ?

She swears by CAC, I know that having read her "Hot Topics" columns on-and-off.

I don't know about me being in a fantasy world. I am sure there is some hanky-panky with grading, especially when a volume dealier like Legend sends in a coin (or coins) as opposed to Yours Truly who sends in 1 every few years.

But getting an upgrade from a TPG and a CAC seems very very rare. That's probably why the 1958 Franklin story stands out so much.

 

Lehigh, very good point about the new toning influence on grading standards.

 

Here's the CU link to the story on the 1953 (not 1958) Franklin re-grade and over-grade:

https://forums.collectors.com/discu...nklins-is-why-i-stopped-collecting-the-series

 

It has been my experience that the error rate is much higher than that. On another blog, I set it at 5%, and the CAC advocates ran off with that as some sort of concession on my part. I have never said that CAC is totally inaccurate. I simply say that you can't take everything at face value. You need to think for yourself.

As for your assertion that one point is unimportant, in the Mint State grade, it can make a lot of difference. Also you should bear in mind that CAC says that they only sticker coins that are "A" or "B" for the grade. They don't sticker "C" coins even if they just make the grade. That says they should not sticker the coin at all if the coin messes the grade entirely.

For example, for the 1838 quarter eagle that I cited earlier the PCGS price guide says that an MS-62 is worth $6,000 and an MS-63 is worth $12,000. On the Grey Sheet, MS-62 is $4,250 and MS-63 is $8,500. Why? These coins are very scarce in strict Mint State, and that’s why the price jumps so much.

Here's the coin in question. Judge it for yourself. Look at the rub above the eagle's head and in the rest of the fields. Are you ready to pay double the money for one grading point to MS-63?



Compare to this 1835 quarter eagle which is an MS-62+ CAC. Note the surfaces about the eagle's head and other areas in the fields have fewer disturbances.

And here is an 1838 quarter eagle that is graded MS-61.

 

They have a pop report. It's pretty easy to eye ball a guess for the total as most series the number is very low. There's well under a million coins that have gotten stickers, it's looks like only a couple hundred thousand total at most