Rarity: What makes you pay more?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Finn235, Feb 21, 2019.

?

What sort of rarity will you pay extra for?

  1. Ruler or Authority

    21 vote(s)
    43.8%
  2. Type or Denomination

    18 vote(s)
    37.5%
  3. Titulature etc

    5 vote(s)
    10.4%
  4. Mint

    7 vote(s)
    14.6%
  5. Variety

    11 vote(s)
    22.9%
  6. I only buy if it's a slam-dunk deal

    7 vote(s)
    14.6%
  7. I don't care about rarity, just aesthetic appeal

    16 vote(s)
    33.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Yesterday on ebay I was watching a coin as a potential upgrade/addition to my collection. It went above my bid, and I wasn't interested in getting into a bidding war, so I let it go.

    The coin was a Licinius II follis with a curious obverse legend LICINIAN LICINIVS IVN - no indication of Caesar anywhere on the coin. It was listed as R5 by the seller, confirmed in my reference. It sold for under $50.

    That got me thinking... we all have a preferred area of focus, and many of us appreciate a true rarity within that field. How significant does a rarity have to be in order for us to be prepared to drop a "significant" amount of money (be it $50 or $5,000) to add that rarity to our collection?

    In somewhat declining order:
    - Rare ruler or issuing authority (e.g. Otho, Gordian II, Romulus Augustulus)
    - Rare type or denomination (Decius double-sestertius, Severus Laetitia Temporum "ship and animals" denarius)
    - Rare titulature or historical connection (Gordian III as Caesar, Diadumenian as Augustus)
    - Rare mint (Alexandria denarii of the Nerva-antonines)
    - Rare variety (legend, mint, or control mark variant)

    Curious to know what everyone's cutoff is where they'd say "Nah, not worth it - let's wait for another one." Also, feel free to show off your favorite rarities in any of these categories!

    Roman:

    Rare ruler - Didius Julianus (my most expensive coin by a decent margin)
    Didius julianus denarius concord militvm.jpg

    Rare denomination / type -
    Julia Maesa AE As (Sold a few months ago)
    Julia Maesa AE As Pudicitia RIC 419.jpg

    Rare Title - Clodius Albinus as Augustus
    Clodius albinus augustus genio lugdunum.jpg

    Rare variety - Claudius II Antoninianus, FIDES EXERCITI - not EXERCI or EXERCIT which are the only two published variants
    Claudius II FIDES EXERCITI.jpg
     
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  3. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Based on your poll and post, I'm guessing your context is within the Roman Imperial milieu.

    I like it when a coin I've bought is regarded as rare in the market but that is usually just icing on the cake-- a secondary reason for liking the coin. The big reasons I will pay more for a coin are:

    1. Interesting reverse (obverses can be interesting too... but not usually not when it is "just a bust". There are exceptions of course :) ). I particularly like unusual, rarely depicted, or syncretic deities.

    2. Fine style.

    3. Desirable pedigree/provenance.

    4. High grade/aesthetic appeal (but also with fine style and usually with some "interesting" reverse").

    5. Rare city/state (Provincials)-- not a major factor for me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    Valentinian, Nvb, galba68 and 7 others like this.
  4. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I agree with TiF, I usually end up with a new addition based on those four guidelines.:)
    John
     
  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I only pay up for a rarity if the entire type is rare AND has an interesting story/fits into the story told by my other coins.

    For example, my most expensive coin. This type is quite rare, but it has an incredibly interesting and specific story behind it. Plus the fact that it was once owned by an ancient Chinese noble is in itself amazingly cool!

    ED25E96A-8A06-439C-B490-9DD759A4A8EB.jpeg

    As for the lunacy of collecting by die variety in US coins, I want no part of it unless I am cherrypicking. :) I don’t pay up for rare coins just because they are rare. There needs to be something that justifies the price on top of the rarity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    Obone, galba68, Marsyas Mike and 8 others like this.
  6. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I wonder what criteria are used by CT members who collect outside the Roman and Greek sphere? @TypeCoin971793, @AnYangMan... what are your criteria?

    Edited: LOL! TypeCoin posted while I was asking this question :D.
     
  7. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    Doesn't have to be strictly Roman; they just make the best examples because many of the categories don't apply to Greek or non-classical coins for the most part. In fact, Greek coins can be so fickle that I've learned not to sell anything valuable on ebay without a high starting bid. Case in point:

    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-PJpMTvGrCWX778t.jpg
    Cilicia, uncertain satrap
    AR Hemiobol
    Head of Herakles / Head of Aphrodite (?)
    Unpublished, not in any auction archives
    Sold for $30
    Still pains me to think of that fateful sale.


    There are some other rarities that I won't let go for a few dollars, and have been unable to sell at anything resembling a decent price:

    Chersonesos AR Diobol (not hemidrachm)
    20171205_Cherronesos-Diobol.jpg

    Aeolis, Kyme AR Trihemiobol (not hemiobol)
    Aiolis kyme trihemiobol eagle incuse.jpg

    Cyprus Pyntos AR hemiobol
    Cyprus Pnytos hemiobol.jpg

    Ionia AR hemiobol, Head of seal in very unusual style and facing the wrong way
    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-TkCp2ZLXAJ.jpg

    Kelenderis AR obol, unpublished type
    Kelenderis obol mule.jpg

    Cilicia unpublished type (head right, not left)
    Cilicia uncertain obol head right eagle on lion.jpg
     
  8. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    ^^^ TypeCoin made an excellent point and one I should have included in my list: story coins. I love a coin that tells a story or that has a story, either through its iconography or because of what happened to that coin sometime later.

    I suspect collectors of countermarked coins will second this :).
     
  9. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I would, naturally, pay more for coins with these attributes, like for this Fiorino. I could have gotten a lesser/later style for half as much, but they just didn’t quite fill the spot.

    0364D095-36A6-4FC0-BF59-B5E54C752589.jpeg

    I don’t usually pay up for provenance, but there are certainly cases where I would. Chinese coins with old/solid provenances are generally worth more since they are much more likely to be genuine. Such an example is this spade from the Q. David Bowers collection. The above Wang Mang knife also has a very old provenance (relative to the scope of Chinese coins).

    A25D963C-9B5D-4E25-B532-865B89B14C43.jpeg
     
  10. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Coin must have "eye appeal" number one, second high quality, with no defects, then the historical significance, provenance....in otherwords a coin that I will never sell. 8fe0c9857b60b5796304dd5b0f6034ed.jpg 4f448c3300d29637d7e757d919eacbe1.jpg 9abd7c4941789df2c02b4a9a4f13febb.jpg 4950f1dfb0070d21a74c12fdaefb2af0 (1).jpg 25bde9436949ff264a134298639a9e0f.jpg
     
  11. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    An example of this is with this knife coin. It is one of the earliest “Ming” knives in existence, having many strong characteristics of the earlier “pointed” knives, which is extremely rare. I paid up for it partly because I did not want to miss out (and part because I was careless with the exchange rate).

    24899643-9B39-4994-8447-D0281F7B9A5A.jpeg

    It was important because it filled a gap in the evolution of the Yan state knife coin over 400 years of being issued.

    250C86D4-4944-44E9-BDF5-A07ACDA82DCB.jpeg
     
  12. AnYangMan

    AnYangMan Well-Known Member

    Interesting idea for a topic! And some equally interesting coins in this topic. Love that Didius Julianus, @Finn235!

    Since you asked: for my Chinese collection, I primarily focus on small square foot coinage. This particular shape is one of the last ones produced towards of the end of the Warring states period and was produced in roughly 100 cities spread across 4 (and a half) state, each with its own inscription. I mostly collect by inscription, where rarity is the defining thing for their value. Common spades will generally set you back 50-100 USD, but rare types go for a multitude of that. I sometimes collect by variety, particularly for common types; I am willing to pay significant premiums for big varieties, inversed characters or an additional character, but these do not pop up that frequently. Take for example the most common inscription: Anyang (安陽, also the origin for my forum-name). If my administration is correct, there are at least ten specimens of this inscription in my collection, most of which are tiny calligraphic varieties. Who can spot the odd one out, where it is actually a major variety?

    img206.jpg

    vidas8.jpg
    anyang.jpeg

    chin-h3,184-1.jpg

    image00085.jpg

    (Don’t worry , I won’t post all of them ;))

    For my non-Chinese collection, I am much more similar to @TypeCoin971793; coins with a story, be it from the imagery, its issuer, the historic context it was issued in, the (archaeological) context in which it was found or its provenance. Oh, and decent eye-appeal ;). Take for example this one, not quite ancient, that is currently heading my way. A hoedjesschelling ('hat' shilling) Zeeland 1711, from the shipwreck of VOC-ship the Zuytdorp!

    zuyt2.JPG
     
  13. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    Some rare coins are used by historians and professors because they tell History amid a grave lack of historical documents. They might be the only source of knowledge in this respect.
    Other coins might be very common but present a very exceptional high condition, almost MS (Mint state) of modern coins . Thus they are considered as rare.
    Also don't forget mint errors like double strike or double head etc..
     
  14. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    For me the coin must have an interesting mythological motive on its rev. In this sense I am a rev. collector. The coin should provide hours and hours of investigations, not only mythological but historico-cultural and art-historical too.

    Jochen
     
  15. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Poll: None of the above.

    My motivation is History. Some of my collection satisfy my needs for niche coinage representing some fascinating placemarkers in those histories.


    upload_2019-2-21_18-30-34.jpeg
    RI Civil War Revolt of Vindex CE 68-69 AR Denarius 17mm 3.02g RIC I 62-RARE


    NOT Roman or Greek...
    upload_2019-2-21_18-31-36.jpeg
    Israelite AR 2-Gerah Hacksilber ca 8-6 C BCE 8.8x10mm 1.12g ex David Hendin RARE


    NOT Roman or Greek...
    upload_2019-2-21_18-33-10.png
    Carthage 201-175 BC Æ 15 Shekels 45 mm 7.5 mm thick. 102g Struck by Hannibal after the 2nd Punic War to finance Roman Indemnities. WreathTanit Horse uraeus above. MAA 104 SNG Cop 400 RARE


    NOT Roman or Greek...
    upload_2019-2-21_18-33-54.png
    Carthage - Sicily AR Litra 4th C BCE 9.5mm 0.65g Palm Tree Horse Head SNG Cop 74 EE Clain-Safanelli RARE


    NOT Roman or Greek...
    Very Difficult to find Libyan War / Mercenary Uprising against Carthage (after 1st Punic War).
    upload_2019-2-21_18-36-22.png
    Carthage Zeugitania Libyan Revolt AR Shekel 24mm 7.34g 241-238 BCE Wreathed Tanit Horse stndg control mark and Punic M SNG Cop 236 Rare


    NOT Roman or Greek...
    upload_2019-2-21_18-37-24.png
    Oversrike - Carthage LIBYAN UPRISING Mercenary War 241-238 BCE AR DiShekel Herakles Head in Lion's Head- Lion walking R SNG Cop 240f RARE


    Struck last two weeks of Caesar’s life...
    upload_2019-2-21_18-38-45.png
    Roman Imperiatorial
    Julius Caesar Lifetime
    P Sepullius Macer
    AR Denarius, 1st 2 weeks-Mar 44 BCE, 19 mm, 4.03g.
    Obv: CAESAR – DICT PERPETVO Veiled and wreathed head of Caesar R.
    Rev: P·SEPVLLIVS – MACER Venus standing l., holding Victory and sceptre resting on star.
    Ref: Syd 1074a Sear Imperators 107e Cr 480-14 Rare


    NOT Roman or Greek...
    upload_2019-2-21_18-41-17.png
    Etruria Populonia AR 5 Asses 3rd C BCE 2.0g Young Hd L V behind HN 173 Vecchi Rasna III 52 Vecchi Etruscan 91.6 ex NAC 29 No 9 RARE
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  16. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    For me, rare rulers, historical appeal - either the coin closely matches ancient historical sources or in a sense, tells the historical story when the sources are noticeably silent or non-existent. I also like rare reverses and mythological/religious types. My biggest purchase to date has been a matched set of Balbinus and Pupienus.

    balbinus1.jpg

    pupienus1.jpg

    In this case, the coins add to the historical backdrop and are remarkable considering the pair only ruled for 90 days. These days, I'm looking for rare mythological types from Roman Egypt. There is an interesting drachm of Antinous for sale at $9,500 which I haven't pulled the trigger on yet.
     
  17. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    There seems to be abundant competition for those right now. They are my primary focus at this time.
     
    ancient coin hunter likes this.
  18. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    upload_2019-2-21_18-53-59.png upload_2019-2-21_18-54-17.png
    India - Shakya Janapada
    AR 5-Shana
    6th-5th Century BCE
    25mm x 21mm, 7.05g
    Obv: Central Pentagonal punch plus several banker's marks
    Rev: Blank
    Ref: Hirano Type I.8.29
    Coinage from the Ghaghara Gandak River region.
    One of less than 20 known

    At this time, any of the 16 "Janapada" was defined as a tribe, country, kingdom, or a republic in northern India. Shakya was a Republic (ah, I love the Republics!), in northern India near present day Nepal.

    The best-known man from Shakya was Prince Siddhartha Shakya. He later gained enlightenment and became know as Buddha Gautama or Buddha, the founder of Buddhism.

    This coin, being from the Janapada and the time, was quite likely produced during and under the authority of the father of the Man who became the Buddha.
     
  19. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    This coin is a drachm of Septimius Severus minted at the city of Petra. It is unique. Not only that it is part of a series that is known from about 28 coins. One Severus Six of Julia Domna Three or Four of Geta and the rest are of Caracalla. petra6d1.jpg
     
  20. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    I think only people with an innate love of history collect ancient coins, which is why I omitted it as a specific option. Rare rulers are fascinating because of how short their reign was. Rare titles pose questions - Why was Gordian III only Caesar for a few months? Or, Why were deification issues struck for Commodus, when he had just been assassinated for being an intolerable a-hole?

    On the subject of non-classicals, I'd still consider my Indo-Sassanian collection to be my crowning achievement. No two are alike, but rarities still abound. Some favorites that I have had more than my share of luck getting:

    You've heard of Sri Ha, but how about...

    Sri Te
    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-zLBW8h1wOBhQ2x1L.jpg

    Sri Va
    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-Li3NjUNl0HOO9.jpg
    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-wPZDgkTpPB6aW.jpg
    Sri Ma
    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-a8kWjEcS35qtik.jpg

    Sri Da Ma
    Sri Da Ma 2.2.5.1-1.jpg

    I don't even know what this is; it's unpublished and I can only make out "Sri"
    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-U5wtpvehvUM1YWm.jpg

    Didn't even try
    Post sri ha.jpg

    Sri ViGra
    Indo sassanian palas sri vigra dramma.jpg

    Sri Vi
    Palas sri vi dramma.jpg

    There is no history behind these coins; they cannot be ascribed to any ruler or even issuing authority. But, neverthe less it is fun to ponder over the puzzle. All but the last two coins are rare; the last two are rare early iterations of common coins.
     
  21. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Not really/ I loved history from the time I entered Grade 1, always was fascinated by that subject. But....I collect coins from all eras, since the history behind a coin struck in Hungary in 1633 for Ferdinand II, is as unique as a coin minted at Ravenna under the emperor Honorius. The Hungarian AV Dukat came from a time when Europe was fighting a religious conflict named the, "Thirty Years War". The Western Roman Solidus at a time when Rome would be sacked in 410AD.
     
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