Hi everyone, When grading Indian Head Cents, how much weight is placed on the 4 diamonds? My understanding is that 4 diamonds are needed for the IH to be an xf. I've seen many IH's at local coin shows that are graded xf, au, and even bu, with less than the four diamonds. In some instances, the diamonds are so weak that I would not even grade them xf. I know grading will always be a little sujective, but when you consider "LIBERTY" and in this case the 4 diamonds, consistency should be fairly easy to maintain. Can anyone carify? Thanks
Steve - When you say - "I've seen many IH's at local coin shows that are graded xf, au, and even bu, with less than the four diamonds." - OK, graded by who ? Are you talking about slabbed coins or raw coins ? It depends on which set of grading standards you use as to the importance of the diamonds. ANA standards require the diamonds be visible or very plain for an XF and above grade. PCGS standards do not require them at all.
4 diamonds are not required for XF, but I look for it on au coins. The diamond detail can be weak on AU coins. To me the difference between XF and AU is the amount of wear and surfaces of the coin. Even though some may disagree with me I link this indian cent grading. I wish I could find the link that shows the order for looking at IHC. The hardest is determining weak strike from wear in some cases - especially with pictures.
Okay - "The diamond design and letters in liberty are very plain". Now I read your post again - "ANA standards require the diamonds be visible or very plain for an XF and above grade". Okay - no where does it specify the grade at like XF40 or XF45. Are you being cryptic on me in a yoda like fashion? I am not sensing the force. Okay - I read it several times and I still get the impression from your post that XF40 coin will have all 4 diamonds visible. Even the guide I posted a link to says the same thing - no where did anyone specify a specific grade just - xf in general. As to the original poster it seems like he is runing into market grading, which I have seen - yet at the same time the prices are reasonable for the actual lesser grade(not always). The whole key is finding the right priced coin for what you think the grade is.
Not trying to be cryptic at all. In my post I paraphrased, or thought I did, what the two ANA standards say for XF40 and XF45. You quoted XF40 verbatim - "EF-40: Feathers are well defined and Liberty is bold. Wear shows on hair above ear, curl to right of ribbon and ribbon end. Most of the diamond design shows plainly" XF45 - Wear shows on hair above ear and curl to right of ribbon and on ribbon end. The diamond design and LIBERTY are very plain. High points of the leaves and bow are lightly worn. Traces of mint luster still show. Now I thought that my comment - "ANA standards require the diamonds be visible or very plain for an XF and above grade." - was a reasonable paraphrase for the two sentences I underlined above. Now perhaps I misunderstood your following comment - "The key word is most." - but I thought you were disagreeing with me. And that was why I posted what I did after your post. If you read just the XF40 standard I suppose there are two different ways that the word "most" could be interpretted. It could mean that one of the diamonds could be missing. But if you read the standard for the XF45 grade as well, it clarifies it IMO to mean that one of the diamonds could be partially faint, but not missing.
Hi Again I was talking about raw coins. Sorry. Thanks for all the great information. I especially find the link that mark_h sent to be very enlightening. Thanks again.
Hey Steve, welcome to the forum. Have you found it as interesting and infomative as I had promised????
First welcome Steve. And raw or not Steve look carefully at any graded coins. You will see some AU's with very faint diamonds. You will also see that key-dates and semi-key dates are not always properly graded in my opinion. It took me a while to find ones that I was happy with on the grading and price. And I would probably still bump a couple of them down a grade from what is on the holder. Am Doug I am not sure either of us was very clear. I think we were saying the same thing differently.
Yes, I have found the forum very interesting and informative. I've got to gain more confident in my knowledge of grading when deciding on a coin to buy. The forum does give me market place incites that have been and will be useful in the future. Well, another week, another show. Thanks all.
Well Ed, do you not think it likely that the most obvious reason for that is because in the '50s there were no grading standards at all. Even Brown & Dunn was not published until 1958.
