Honorius solidus with Constantinopolis fake?

I recently purchased a few Byzantine gold coins, and attributed all except this one. 4.44g, AV20. The obverse bust and reverse do not match. All the coins with the reverse (Constantinopolis seated facing, holding sceptre and Victory on globe, foot resting on prow; star in left field, CONOB in exergue) have the bust pearl-diademed, helmeted and cuirassed three-quarters facing bust with Christogram on chest, holding spear over shoulder instead of the bust facing right like mine. Maybe someone has seen this version? Or else it is a fake. Any ideas?

 

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Obverse is of Milan (RIC 1209) and the reverse of Constatinople (RIC 201)

Could be a doctored cast fake (flan shape a little bit modified).

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=K6XfKsB67uc=

 

@Joseph Sarkissian Good news is gold coins can be tested. There are labs that can test the age of gold by testing the time of last melt (meaning when it was melted and fired) and that can tell if it is ancient or not for certainty. However I am not sure what would be the cost for test but I would research and try that route!

 

Why testing a doctored cast fake of which twins exist with an impossible fantasy die combination?
Milan obverse and Constatinople reverse !!

Determination when gold was melted is possible with Helium, uranium and thorium analyses ( calculating age with radioactive decay).

https://journals.openedition.org/archeosciences/2017?lang=en

Analysis costs only 2000 EURO and you will not get money back if the coin is fake !!! Even if the coin would be authentic the authentication costs would be much higher (several times) as the coin´s value.
Has the coin been polished if yes why? (rhetorical question)

 

@Lolli Yes I agree the cost is prohibitive for coins not worth much but if I buy a roman or sasanian gold coin with over 15K cost I would consider this. Also note some auction houses that guarantee the coin would need to pay the testing fee if coin is fake!

 

What! - So it is possible to dertermine when a gold was melted with some test pretty much like the radiocarbon dating?. Fascinating.

Can a similar test be used to dertermine when the bronze or silver was melted? or is it only gold?

 

V.g.coin

 

yes in indeed it is amazing that can be done! but unfortunately not for silver and bronze. For silver though XRF is best way for now !

 

The OP is a well known fake I am afraid. Here is a double die match from the Forvm Fake reports and a link to the report.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-11236

 

OH NO! Man, I hate that!

 

HOW TO DELETE ACCOUNT HERE ?

maridvnvm

It is meaningless if it is a die match to a fake except the fake is from modern hand cutted dies or recutted dies.

If the the fake is a electrotype, cast or transfer die fake and the mother was authentic then a die match is meaningless!

THIS IS THE CASES HERE AUTHENTIC COINS FROM THE SAME DIES BUT WITH CORRECT DIE COMBINATION DO EXIST!

The die combination is as I have written already impossible.

The die matching coins in bulletin on counterfeits with correct die combination are TRANSFER DIE FAKES! I have bulletin on counterfeits but there is not written modern hand cutted dies or wrong style, which should be written there if completely modern dies^^

OBVERSE DIE (TRANFER DIE FAKE IN Bulletin on counterfeits)

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=ExMMasNjQ~x~o=

IBSCC Bulletin on Counterfeits BOCS Vol 21 No.2 1996 Page 29 Fig 5

THe fake coin reports links of maridvnvm
and what is written in fake reports.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-11236

Honorius Modern fake of AU solidus of Honorius, early fifth century AD. Impossible East-West mule with mismatched obverse and reverse as noted below.
obv: D N HONORIVS P F AVG draped and cuirassed bust, r, pearl-diademed
rev: CONCORDIA AVGGI Constantinopolis seated facing, head r., holding scepter in r. hand and Victory on globe in l.; r. foot on prow; star in left field; CONOB in exe.
obverse is RIC X 1209, from Milan, 402 AD
reverse is RIC X 201, from Constantinople, AD 408-420, reign of Theodosius II
Incorrect style; from confirmed fake dies: obverse is from fake die condemned in BoC 21.2 (1996/1997), p. 29. Reverse is from fake die condemned as a forgery in BOC 2.4 (1977), p. 93.
Sold on ebay, April 2009 by a seller in Israel. An identical fake from same dies was offered at the same time on ebay -- cf: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-7058

 

The example in fake reports has a recutted reverse die and has nothing to do with the first coin posted in this thread except the same obverse die.

Here is another fake with same recutted reverse die of Theodosius II
Die links between Milan and Constantinople and between Honorius and Theodosius are most likely impossible especially if you consider that the reverse die was recutted (face of Concordia).

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2717464

 

Lolli,
You seem quite cross with me for some reason. Whose account do you wish deleted? Mine?

All,
I am fed up with such outbursts of anger when trying to help out. Perhaps it's just me and my posting style.

I am done. Thanks folks. It was fun for a while but for me it has stopped being fun here. Perhaps I will see some of you elsewhere.

 

I agree there has been some animosity expressed in recent posts and I'm not sure why this is happening. However, the good of CT far outweighs the bad. I just ignore those who wish to bully on-line and move on. I wish you would think again about quitting here. You have provided valuable insight throughout your time here, and I for one appreciate your efforts.

 

In the article there can be seen there is totally no trend in the antiquity vs the trapped He atoms. An item from 12th century has more He atoms trapped then an item from the 1st century. It all has to do where the gold in the object came from, every deposit of gold has another concentration of U and Th elements in the crystal structure, meaning that every item from a different gold deposit has another rate of He emission.

The authors even conclude themselves multiple times that this method is unreliable but can be a good additional confirmation if a gold piece is fake or not.

Until this date, there is no trustworthy method for silver or gold that can fully determine the antiquity unlike the quite trustworthy method of radiocarbon dating for organic materials.

I agree with @Bing regarding the animosity lately.
It would be a real shame to loss a valuable member on this forum, I hope you do stay.

 

I want to delete my account !

It is a serious problem to say it is fake because it is a die match to a forgery as I have mentioned very often before because you can use every autentic coin to produce fakes all you need is an impression of the coin to make casting moulds or transfer dies!!!

Why can´t people understand that it is important to know why the fake is actually fake and that fake reports and bulletin are not always useful if you do not know how to use them and sometimes the information there is not correct!

Often it is not written why the fakes in fake coin reports or in bulletin on counterfeits are actually fake and if we do not know this information we have to be very carefully to do not condemn authentic coins from the same dies if the fakes are actually transfer die, cast or electrotype fakes.

The information it is a die match to a fake is only interesting if it is a forgery from modern hand cutted dies or recutted transfer dies where details have been modified and are different than on the authentic dies.

 

I got it like this, don't know. This coin came straight from the middle east.

 

You can always just logout and forget your password.

 

So sorry that my post precipitated a probably long-standing dispute among members. No one should ever be offended by other comments. it doesn't take away from your own knowledge and who you are. They're just freaking coins. I am no expert in coins, and it seems there will always be differences in opinion on ancient coins. I appreciate every single input from all you experts though, and I will send the coin back and get another more authenticated one in return.

 

Looking at the reverse of this coin and comparing it to mine, it may actually be made with the same forged die. The I in concordia is fused to the sceptre just like mine, as well as other details.