Need help with VAM and DD please

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Bogardis, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. Bogardis

    Bogardis Active Member

    Don’t know if this is the correct thread for this, but I’ll try....

    I found a 1921 Morgan that appears to have doubling on the letters in UNITED, ONE, and the DOL of dollar. I compared it to others and they are clean and sharp. Does anyone have any info about this??

    Also, I found one 1921 Morgan which appears to be a VAM3-C? Has pits surrounding the U and N in UNITED on reverse. Also, I realize die cracks are somewhat common on the Morgan’s and Peace, but this one has cracks from the bottom of the wreath down past the E in ONE, from the right wing down to the top of the wreath, across the top of the letters in STATES, and a big one from the rim above the right wing, down to the right wing tip, and then across the top of the letters in AMERICA. Does the amount of cracks make a difference, or are they just basic cracks that don’t matter?? B8AE4D27-2D81-488C-A53D-F505B67BEA9C.jpeg C68AFDD8-00B9-4F28-9527-778841AC0614.jpeg 6240B9A0-0B9A-476F-95F0-9CE90B764ABB.jpeg 0BE3A997-8CE2-4D53-BA8D-E14BB04C8269.jpeg



    4C505694-A844-455E-9016-EFD71B947521.jpeg EF9A8E7A-8A87-4C6A-9185-1E7D8DC8C8DB.jpeg 67DFBA8B-2E8C-452E-9137-F24C7C94C9DC.jpeg F4186CD5-9D2A-476D-A954-816156355916.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  3. MeowtheKitty

    MeowtheKitty Well-Known Member

    Meow thinks its Machine doubling. It does not look like an identical image is underneath the top one.
     
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  4. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    Agree that it's machine doubling, not doubled die.

    Die cracks can be quite interesting on Morgan's and Peace Dollars. I don't get into VAM's, but there are many here who will be able to help you.
     
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  5. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    As far as the VAM check the 3C1, 2 & 3 progression..
     
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  6. Bogardis

    Bogardis Active Member

    Has the exact matching displacement break E as 3C2, and same break as 3C3 as in photo below 63F81F21-8F44-49F2-837D-5EDD15E9697B.jpeg
     
  7. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    The doubling is pretty strong strike doubling. The pitted coin is probably VAM 3C3. Look to see if you have the double clashed 't' behind the hair as illustrated on VAMWorld. I see the doubled clash by the wreath, which tells me that the doubled 't' should be there.
     
  8. Bogardis

    Bogardis Active Member

    I’ve looked 10 times now with different light, I can’t find it.
     
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  9. DBDc80

    DBDc80 Numismatist

    hi meow the kitty caat!
     
  10. MeowtheKitty

    MeowtheKitty Well-Known Member

    Purrrrrrr. Hello.
     
  11. Bogardis

    Bogardis Active Member

    @messydesk , by not having the incuse t at the bottom hairline, would that make it a 3C2? It has all the other attributions for C3C, just not the t. I’m kind of mind boggled on this one. Thanks in advance
     
  12. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    You landed in an unfortunate gray area in VAMs. Technically, if the 't' is not visible, it is VAM 3C2, and there ends the short answer. The reason there's no 't' might be that because the clash marks have worn off the die and don't impart a 't' on the coin anymore. Gradual things like die wear complicate attribution at times. The best examples of that typically have to do with clash marks fading away.
     
  13. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    My 3C example falls into this category. I have it cataloged as a VAM-3C2 as the tt clash is no longer present. I'm assuming the clash was so light it didn't last long given the area it's in (metal flow into the bust?) There is a radial die crack on the reverse through the E in ONE that that develops field displacement during the eradication of the tt clash. I'm not seeing that displacement on the OP example so the tt apparently didn't last long at all.
     
  14. Bogardis

    Bogardis Active Member

    96963BE4-46FB-4094-A0D3-5B67C29A92E0.jpeg
    Thanks for the info! Is this the crack one the E you’re referring to?
     
  15. Bogardis

    Bogardis Active Member

    Thanks for the help, all info is good info, I absorb it like a sponge!
     
  16. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    That's the one.
     
  17. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    Here's a couple of crops from my (what I consider) 3C2. 1921.3c2.rev.1.jpg 1921P.V3c2.rev.2.jpg
     
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  18. Bogardis

    Bogardis Active Member

    Ok perfect! Sorry, I reckon my original photos weren’t too great. Mine does indeed have the one by the E, along with all the other cracks/breaks/pits, just missing the dang “t”..
     
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