the odd contradiction in cleaned coin values - a newbie perspective

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by TylerH, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I was offered this one, but the owner backed out and stopped responding altogether. He tied up my money for weeks.

    The reverse had been completely shaved off and then later “replaced”.

    B5C7C9E7-9688-4947-843B-7D4A6BB4CC30.jpeg B385E617-FFCF-4682-8655-26B5363B3473.jpeg
     
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  3. 1916D10C

    1916D10C Key Date Mercs are Life! 1916-D/1921-D/1921

    What Denom.? (I want to assume 10C)
     
  4. 1916D10C

    1916D10C Key Date Mercs are Life! 1916-D/1921-D/1921

    I'm just curious, but why would you buy that? I mean, just for a type set, resale, or.....? The reverse is just...... :vomit:
     
  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    That wasn’t the case here:

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/early-us-silver-coinage.331819/page-3#post-3334144

    But such tooling is deception and would not take it at all unless it is a very rare type that I want (1793 chain cent, 1796 half dollar, etc.). I would value it at 50% less (for minor tooling) to 80% less (all hair details re-engraved).
     
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  6. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Quarter

    I offered to certify it and sell it for him on commission. He said that he had shipped it, so I held off sending off coins while I waited for the coin. It never came.

    If I was buying it for my collection, I would not pay more than $500, but it is worth 5-10x as much, so I didn’t offer to buy it.
     
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  7. 1916D10C

    1916D10C Key Date Mercs are Life! 1916-D/1921-D/1921

    When I referred to that as "tooled" I meant because it looked like the arrows had been enhanced-- the scratches seem to be coming from the arrows. I guess a more appropriate assessment would have been "scratched".
     
  8. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    Net graded or not I would feel comfortable with all 3 of your straight graded coins, and I suspect I am speaking for the majority of collectors. If the majority didn’t feel that way then the TPGs would be giving more details grades. For me to completely pass on a straight graded coin the problem has to jump out.
     
    baseball21 and Bob Evancho like this.
  9. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Everyone has things that are unacceptable to them and views certain problems differently. Small old/light scratches don't bother me much especially out of a focal point and I would take some extra hits on a coin that has superior eye appeal while others would be the opposite. Just like it drives me crazy to see high grade ugly dindgy dog coins just because they don't have a lot of hits. Generally eye appeal rules that day and most people have issues that are fine with overlooking for otherwise nice coins.

    It's up to all of us to decide what issues (if any) we are willing to overlook. Are their straight graded coins I wouldn't have given a clean grade too yes of course, but there are also details coins that have an issue that doesn't bother me much where I would have given a clean grade too. It goes both ways it's just that only one way gets focused on by a lot of people so it seems disproportionate from responses.

    There's plenty of room to wonder why an EACer felt they way they did or disagreed with the grade of another member. There is actually no official EAC grade either just people who belong there with their grades and if it was as technical and straight forward as you are trying to present it, the top experts there wouldn't be assigning different grades to things which is a result of ambiguity and different opinions.

    I'm not knocking EAC and their methods work for them as too many of their practices of oils and brushes generally lead to details coins at the TPGs, but the grading from their members is no where near as straight forward or standardized as you are trying to present it.

    It doesn't change on a whim like that. Only the uninformed or those with little to no experience believe that. Just like only on the internet are crackouts automatic upgrades. Anything changing that rapidly is just things that were borderline and could have gone either way to begin with.

    And you haven't seen all of them in hand to actually know how bad they are. Circulated coins can in fact get hairlines from circulating especially coins from a time frame where a lot of people were traveling on horseback with saddle bags ect. Digital pictures can also exacerbate things to look like an issue that really aren't. You take far too many pictures from various sources and coins you've never seen in hand to try and eviscerate the TPGs.
     
  10. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I think I have only see you admit this in practice once (a straight-graded 1819 quarter with the 25 C scratched out). You have defended the grade practically every other time. And other times you have refused to take a position on whether or not you agree with the grade (a straight-graded 1798 quarter eagle with such severe damage that auction cataloguers were compelled to make note of it).

    I know it does not change from day to day (it was simply to use the expression), which is why I said “quarter to quarter”. And by “quarter” I meant business quarters, not quarter dollars.

    And what about the stuff that is far from borderline? Clear harsh cleanings, significant scratches, bends, environmental damage, etc.

    Do you think I don’t know that? The hairlines seen on the first 1818 quarter are from a harsh cleaning, not normal circulation.

    And you take the same coins which you have not seen in hand, even ones I have seen in hand, and try to defend the grade.

    This coin had been cleaned, has some digs, and a long scratch behind the head (the obverse streak is a planchet flaw). PCGS graded it AU-50 when I was expecting AU details. You defended the grade.

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  11. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    It doesn't randomly bounce around quarter to quarter either

    I generally just point out that the TPG graders know FAR more than you do and have FAR FAR more experience. My energy for trying to explain anything with grades to you is loooonnngggg gone
     
  12. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Don’t do that.
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  13. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    The bottom line is this: in today’s coin market if you clean, polish, whiz, tool or alter the coin in any way, shape or form, you are killing the interest of a huge percentage of people who might want to buy it.
     
    micbraun, KSorbo and -jeffB like this.
  14. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I guess everyone who submits regularly is wrong then.

    Have I ever denied that? Nope. But it has been pointed out several times on this board that it is the company who sets the standards, not the individual graders.

    Your energy is spent trying to explain how that the graders’ grades are always correct, with very few exceptions where you admit that a mistake had been made.

    Remember that time you blasted me for saying that NGC undergraded my VF 1803 large cent, only to backpedal later when PCGS wound up agreeing with me? Fond memories. :)
     
  15. TylerH

    TylerH Well-Known Member

    I know all of this stuff :) I personally wouldn't clean any coin, period.

    There are so many oddities like this in all of professional grading. Like creases down the center of a comic book. Sometimes they are "color breaking creases" and sometimes they are "subscription folds." Sometimes ink on the cover is "amateur restoration" and sometimes its just "record keeping writing." An autograph is also damage, unless you pay to have it authenticated then it gets a special color grade insert and is now "signature series."

    I still enjoy the days of wrapping rubber bands around my garbage pail kids and just being happy to have them.
     
    Marsden likes this.
  16. TylerH

    TylerH Well-Known Member

  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    People who submit regularly know it doesn't bounce around quarter to quarter randomly like you are saying.

    Because with very few exceptions they hadn't actually made a mistake no matter what you say.

    I blasted your hypocrisy about how you always are complaining about how overgraded things are in your opinion but then as soon as it was something you owned (very likely trying to sell) all of a sudden the TPGs were too tight.

    There's countless occasions of you being corrected for lack of knowledge of a series if you really want to try and play that game. Jack of all trades master of none.

    I'm done engaging with this, the misinformation has been corrected
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  18. serafino

    serafino Well-Known Member

    True, but they will all sell for good money on Ebay :) The old adage that a cleaned coin is only worth melt is far from true in today's market.
     
    Bob Evancho likes this.
  19. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Amen. I’d like to add that env. damage is not as bad as man-made issues such as graffiti or tooling.
     
  20. Jamie Sweat

    Jamie Sweat New Member

    Who are "people"? Clearly, there is a segment of the coin community that wants the best-looking coin, rather than the "native purity" of a coin that may look ugly.

    Still...in that vein...I don't like a scratched up version that someone calls "clean". Dirtless with scratches all over is still as unappealing as original that is heavily "dirtified". A cleaned coin that has lost all it's luster is also not as appealing. So.....if it can be restored in the sense of looking MORE like the original state after cleaning than it did before cleaning, I'm for it. But just cleaning to get dirt off with no regard to replacing dirt with an equally-unappealing (or worse) state....I'm not interested in those coins.

    Webs
     
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