A Sasanian drachm or an imitation struck by the Hunnic?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Framundan, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. Framundan

    Framundan Member

    萨珊银币.jpg
    As the picture shows, here is a coin really confused me.
    It looks like a coin issued by Hormazd IV while the letters looks blundered. So I wondered if the coin is an imitation of Hunnic tribes like Hephthalites, though there is no countermarks on the coin.
    What do you think?

    Coin Information
    Obv: AFZUN AUHaRMaZI(Prosperity of Hormazd) -The king's portrait.
    Rev: YAJDaH?(Year 11) GD?(Jay Mint) -Fire altar flanked by two attendants
    30mm, 3.51 g.
     
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  3. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Hormizd is a ruler that were the source material for a lot of Hunnic imitations. However, all of them I have seen and own have countermarks on them. Yours, while it has that "tall bust" look endemic in many hunnic issues, I would say its a Sassanid one. Many of his come very crude, like Peroz and Khusro I.
     
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  4. Framundan

    Framundan Member

    Thank you for your reply!
    May I ask another question? Since I do not own many Sasanian coins, I'm not so confident about the year and mint on the coin which was recognized by myself. Do you agree that the coin was issued in Year 11 and struck at Jay mint?
     
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  5. A tad unusual in style but I'd say that is an official Sassanian coin. The lettering and numbers look correct too.
     
  6. Framundan

    Framundan Member

    Thank you! Maybe I need to get in touch with more Sassanian coins to improve my ability to recognize them.
     
  7. It don't look like the mint mark for Ray. it seems to state just the letter A. The year is not clear to me, sorry.
     
  8. Thanks. I'd be interested to see opinions from other Sassanian coin collectors on this coin, especially the year. When you've handled a fair few of them, you'll get used to them quickly and develop a gut-instinct on appearance alone.
     
  9. Parthicus

    Parthicus Well-Known Member

    Looks like it's probably an official strike, but poor style. Mintmark is most likely to be A (uncertain site in Media), while the year seems to be Year 6. (The last letter isn't very clear, but [insert standard rant about Pahlavi script here]). You may already know this website, but if you didn't then definitely check out these pages by the late Tom Mallon on Sasanian mintmarks and dates:

    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=sasanian mints

    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Sasanian Dates
     
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  10. Ancientnoob

    Ancientnoob Money Changer

    I suspect and official coin. I have a counter marked example. I would imagine given the history that surrounds these they were produced by the ass load. (Seriously) That might account for the poor style.
    HormizdIVPHROROb.jpg
     
  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Yes, they were produced by Peroz, Hormizd IV and Khusro I in huge quantities as tribute to the Hepthalites. I believe Peroz had to even ransom his own life twice with them. Partially it it that, but Peroz to me marks the beginning of late Sassanian coinage denoted by lower style overall. My three main eras of Sassanian coinage are, (totally made up by me, so no validity to others):

    First era - Ardashir to early Shapur II
    High style, gorgeous coins generally
    Second era - middle of Shapur II to early Peroz
    Hit or miss style, some almost as good as First era, but most average style
    Third era - middle Peroz to end of empire
    Almost every ruler good style coins exist, but majority sloppily produced
    with low style.

    Helps me to think about them this way. Finding a higher style Third era coin can be tough. Khusro II exist simply due to huge output and the money flowing in through the conquests.
     
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  12. Ancientnoob

    Ancientnoob Money Changer

    I like the three periods idea.

    Shapur I
    shapurireshoot.jpg
    Peroz I
    PerozA3.jpg
    Khusro II
    KhusroIIC.jpg
     
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  13. Black Friar

    Black Friar Well-Known Member

    Right character on reverse looks like "Bulwinkle"; could the other be "Squirrel".
    Could be called the Moose and Squirrel reverse? Ok, got a little carried away.
    Personally, I like that coin. Good get.
     
  14. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    contra other comments - this does not look official to me. No idea who did make it, but yes - I think you are correct in your puzzlement
     
  15. Pellinore

    Pellinore Well-Known Member

    I quite agree, but how to discern Earlier and Later Shapur II?

    5379 Shapur II ct.jpg 5380 Shapur II.jpg 5355 Shapur II ct.jpg 5378 Shapur II ct.jpg

    Four times the same type, all Shapur II (309-379), rev. with a god in the fire altar.
     
  16. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Sure. All I am really saying is the Hormizd coin looks weird to me. I would certainly back down if someone who studied the coins more closely disagreed. On Shapur II's the crude versions are very common - so that matter is puzzling but not weird so to speak. Actually, the crude S II's look to me like someone who was trained but worked in a big hurry. On the reverse that H IV looks like he never got formally trained in the mint. But that is entirely subjective of course
     
  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I believe we need further study on the question of mints. When I was a kid, every town of any size had a CocaCola bottling plant that cranked out soda for local distribution. The first use bottles were marked on the bottom with the name of the town but bottles were washed and refilled so you could not tell where the soda inside was made. Kids loved to look under their bottle and see who had one farthest from home. Sasanian mints were similar. They had a lot of them. Not every ruler used every mint and the idea of marking the coins did not start until Peroz but style differences are there earlier. I have not made a study of these.

    While I like the three divisions idea, it has to be modified a bit to allow for quality variations in art or workmanship from town to town. Those of us who will only have a coin of fine style will be interested in a few of the mints that had a top notch crew and might reject the rarities that specialists would value most highly. Modern coins and Coke bottles may have been marked with a city of origin name but the style of San Francisco CA and Philadelphia PA were identical. We don't even have certain knowledge of the city names represented by Sasanian initials. If you see a number of coins from the sme mint you get the idea that a specialist might learn to recognize one mint from another without reading the mint marks. I like good style as much as the next guy but I find myself drawn as well to cities that I have not seen before or those that played a role in history. I was disappointed in a recent purchase of a two volume work on Sasanian coins that had thousands of pictures of coins accompanied by almost no information and no links to history or text explaining much of anything. Its authors set out to show all the coins in their museum but did little to further knowledge as I would have hoped. Sasanian coins can be collected either way. We can care or not that, for example, Khusru II in year 25 captured Jerusalem. We can look at the coin below as having a common mint city with decent style, a weak strike on the right attendant or a year date of minor note.
    oa0940bb2480.jpg

    More of us might like the history of the year 38 below. Khusru II was killed that year. I have not become much of a student of Sasanian but I most certainly see a field with moe to study than will fit into a lifetime of a person much younger than I am. At my current level, I only hope to read correctly the mints and date information.
    oa1010bb2483.jpg
     
  18. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Shapur II usually can be divided by year minted. To me, coin 1 and 3 have the larger busts associated with early, high style. Coins 2 and 4 have the smaller busts associated with Period 2 like Ardashir II, Bahram V, etc. It is truly a transition emperor, especially considering he ruled a very long time.

    @dougsmit I agree completely. Style for individual mints, creators are even more important for Sasanid issues versus others. Even these three categories are very broad brushes, but help me remember excellent style is expected for the first, can be found fairly easily for the second, but is a fairly rare event for the third. Plus, the three eras simply have fundamentally looked like different coins to me. First are huge portraits and very lifelike reverses, second small busts and less lifelike reverses, and this bigger busts in lower style but the reverses very angular and stylized.
     
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  19. Ancientnoob

    Ancientnoob Money Changer

    The deviation from the norm is most evident in the Khusro II coinage of Alexandria. Sassanians were occupying Alexandria (Byzantine territory) and these were made.

    Sassanian Persia
    Alexandria, Egypt
    AE 12 Nummi (AD 621-628)
    24 mm x 14.22 grams
    Obverse: Bust of Khusro II facing forward wearing a Crown with Star to left Crescent to right Cross center.
    Reverse: I/B either side of cross on orb, Greek legend ALEZ in ex.
    Ref: SB #856, DOC #192
    Note: Very Rare. Ex Tom Wood

    KhusroII12Nummi.jpg
     
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  20. Pellinore

    Pellinore Well-Known Member

    The three periods, that's really useful. Here are some other examples, not the usual coins.

    5372 ct.jpg

    Drachm of Ardashir I, the founder of the dynasty - although he was a prince himself, a descendant of the kings of Persis, a western province of Iran.

    Ardashir I (223-241), AR drachm. Obv. Bust t.r. Rev. Fire altar. Two vertically placed dots at the right side of the altar. 24.5 mm. 4.11 gr. A little rim damage. Göbl III/2/2. Michener 792.

    5382 Zamasp ct.jpg

    Sasanian empire. Zamasp (496-498), silver drachm, 497. 28 mm, 3.91 gr. Obv. Bearded bust t.r. with merlon crown, topped with a corymbos on a crescent moon. At the opposite, tiny prince’s bust. Single pearl circle. Rev. Fire altar with assistants. Dots at both sides. Left the date, year 2; right the mint sign AY, Eran-xvarrah-Sabuhr, a place east of the Tigris near Susa. Zeno 204938.

    5385 Ard III.jpg

    Sasanian empire, AR drachm Ardashir III (628-630). Year 2 (=629 AD). Mint Nemavand. Obv. Beardless head r. 32/34 mm, 4.10 gr. Zeno 205791.
     
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  21. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Am just a dilettante on these - but here are a couple of points

    1) For weight standard, up to Peroz the coins seem to follow Alexander and strike to Attic c. 4.25g. Then Peroz drops the standard to 4.15g or perhaps 4.13g I interpret this as a rejection of the Greek heritage and a return to the Persian mina of Darius - thus a kind of siglos - 500g/120 (or perhaps 500g/121, a drachm for the mint master?).....

    2) There is a huge change in style in the middle of the reign of K II, and it is associated with a weird 10 year plus gap in coining. Loads of crude style coins up to c. year 13 - gap - then loads of nice coins after c. year 26 or so, as I recall. I never saw a good explanation of the gap or the change

    Rob T
     
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