1964D Prooflike Quarter

PCGS still has the regrade service along with the reconsideration.

 

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Man I have a lot to learn about grading still! I am not knocking your coin as it is beautiful but, how did it get MS with the 5 consecutive contact marks, the "scratches"? in his hair, the fingerprint and especially the scuff mark on his cheek? Apparently I am being way too hard on my KHD's as I have rejected coins because I thought the scuffs on the cheek were interpreted as circulation wear. I need to go through my 64's again as I may have some nicer coins than I realize.

 

You are correct. I did not go far enough into the site to find it. It's good to know it is still an option. Thank you.

For other who may be looking. Click on the link and scroll down to "Types of Submissions", it's called "Regrade".

https://www.pcgs.com/servicesandfees

 

1. The difference between AU and MS is based on wear. There is no wear on this coin. Contact marks are not wear.

2. Contact marks and scratches are different things - this coin has no scratches, but it does have contact marks. The difference is in extent - a contact mark is usually short, may be deep, but is not extended; a scratch is a longer mark, like something was dragged across the face of the coin. Terminology is important.

3. Where do you see a fingerprint?

4. Scuffs on a cheek, or interruptions in the luster from marks like this, are not necessarily circulation wear.

There are 2 suggestions for your continued eduction: first, buy and read a good book about how to grade coins. There are several out there, and members here can recommend their favorites. Second, after you read a good book, take a really close look at the Heritage auction archives - spend a long time looking at AU-58 examples and compare them to MS examples. You should start to notice a difference. Grading from photographs will never be as good as looking at coins in hand, but it's a decent start.

 

Thanks for the reply, a book is an excellent idea as is studying photo's on a TPG site.
Looks like a fingerprint in front of, over and below the ear on the neck.
This is the area on the cheek that looked to me like a scuff or wear from rubbing against other coins that I often see on nice coins I find CRH. I guess these will not adversely affect the grade as much as I assumed.

 

The way I see this is:

If you submit a coin straight from the mint struck with a new die, they slap it with a First Strike label.

If you submit a coin made with a new die after it was delivered to you, then it gets a PL stamp.

Isn't that what the MS grades are supposed to cover?

 

This is not a fingerprint, this is a part of the design. If you look at more Kennedys, you'll see the same thing on every one of them.

This is a small toning spot, not a scuff. In hand, it is quite clear but it doesn't come across well in the picture.

Not necessarily. Not all new dies make PL coins, and not all PL coins come from new dies. If you compare a true PL coin to the vast majority of business strike coins, you will see a clear difference.

 

David Lawrence has a 1948 S Roosevelt NGC MS66 PL for sale. Just a heads up

 

Nice Newp!

 

As would a grader? MS 68 -70 are reserved for?

 

What? I don't understand your question.

 

I'm not understanding your answer. Describe a proof coin. If your buisness strike coin has sharp, well struck details, square rimmed, and smooth unblemished fields, wouldn't that justify a high MS designation. If you have a PL designation for a business strike, would you then add a BS designation for proofs?

 

The grade is independent of the method of manufacture.

 

No it's not. Mint State (MS) is for business strike coins, And PR is for proofs

 

Proof is one thing.

Business strike is something different.

Sometimes, business strike coins have a reflective, mirrored finish. We call those proof-like. Don't get hung up on the terminology.

 

The only thing that I'm hung up on is a grading standard that is ever changing to support whatever when the simplest form, if followed, will suffice.

 

I don't quite understand what you are getting at..... The term "prooflike" has been used at least since the 70's or 80's and describes an above average business strike with characteristics (such as mirrored fields and frosted devices) of a proof.

 

What I'm getting at is where do you stop? Ok we have a grade for the quarter, now let's add a descriptor to tell us what we are seeing, might as well throw in BW for the color. No wonder it is hard for anyone to decide on a grade. The labels already look like a California license plate, let's go a little further and make them look like a calculus formula. The term "Keep it simple, Stupid" comes to mind. There is a numismatic grading scale that everyone should use, but there is an idea in some peoples head that is: Mine can't like yours, mine is better, I know because mine has more letters.

 

I would love to see a color designation (NGC used to use a T or W for toned or white, but that didn't last too long). I'd absolutely love it if they broke down the composite scores. I'd like to see an individual score for Strike, Luster, Eye Appeal, and Contact Marks. Heck, I'd even like to see a different obverse and reverse score. The more detail a TPG gives me, the easier it is to filter out exactly what I want in a search. And, for the amount I pay for their opinion, they certainly can do better than a single number.

I don't want this to devolve into another lengthy merry-go-round about the philosophies of grading, but there is absolutely no way that a single numerical score can tell you everything you need to know about a coin. Why even bother having auction lot descriptions in the catalogue. You have the number, what more could you possibly need?

 

Did you read my first message? The term prooflike is a valid description. You cannot tell me a prooflike coin is equivalent to a higher grade coin of the same series. Prooflike coins are considered special. They are unique. Not in my area of expertise, but something that any serious Numismatist must respect. A PL MS64 is going to be nicer, eye appeal wise, than an ordinary MS64. This is not opinion, this is facts. Hence the premium someone will pay for such an item. I, myself, am not a condition rarity fan, but PL is one of the few condition rarities I can get behind. They are special.