Antiochos Hierax or Antiochus III

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by DomitLover, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. DomitLover

    DomitLover New Member

    Hi All

    I got this coin fairly cheap but I have 2 questions. It is uncatalogued as Antiochus III but based on image bust I feel it is Antiochus Hierax.
    My second question is why it has so many test cuts? I understand in ancient times they cut the coin to test it's core but what was the need for so many cuts??
     

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  3. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    Looking at the monogram of your coin at the bottom, I see a horse and indeed, the horse is a monogram for Antiochos Hierax. So I vote it is Antiochos Hierax, as you suspected (please wait for other opinions as well). But if it truly is, then congratulations on that because Antiochos Hierax coins are rare.

    Example of a Antiochos Hierax tetradrachm with same monogram as yours:
    [​IMG]

    Why there are so many test cuts? I don't know. Could have been multiple testers or the same tester who was never satisfied with the cut and still suspected a counterfeit, and therefore continued to make more cuts.
     
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  4. DomitLover

    DomitLover New Member

    Thanks Pavlos. I also noticed the horse and found similar coins in the online search. I got this coin for 120 usd although it has many test cuts but fills the gap for a rather rare coin in my seleukid coins.
     
  5. DomitLover

    DomitLover New Member

    I found a die match for it in wildwinds. note the 2 monogram on each side of horse. I can see in my coin there is 2 monogram beside horse as well but almost faded. you agree?
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    Your coin is pretty worn. I wonder if some of the test cuts were made not to verify the metal but to indicate that the coin was still within an acceptable weight. Just guessing.

    The other thing that is kind of weird is that all the cuts on the reverse are the same size and shape. They look like they were made with the same device.
     
  7. DomitLover

    DomitLover New Member

    I know I noticed that they are made by the same guy. Could it be an indication of the mint to say that the coin is invalid?? like after king death maybe to take it out of circulation? but why they didnt melted and recycle it then? any way its a puzzle to me. the seller have many coins with these types of test cuts but all different dies and rulers. so I am guessing they belong to a hoard find .
     
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  8. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I agree :). Welcome to CoinTalk, DomitLover!

    Here's the Wildwinds (Freeman & Sear) Hierax coin outline overlaid on yours:

    CT-DomitLover-HieraxOverlayEd-animation.gif

    (edited to upload an edited overlay with improved positioning of the reverse)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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  9. DomitLover

    DomitLover New Member

    wow amazing job TIF. How did you do this nice animation ovelap? This proves the die match :) but stilk im puzzled about the many test cuts
     
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  10. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I take whichever coin of the pair has the clearest/sharpest devices and in Photoshop Elements reduce it to black and white, erase the white, and then superimposed it on the other coin. Some adjusting of size and rotation is always required. Sometimes I have to skew the image a bit to compensate for different angles of photography.

    Once the overlay looks properly positioned, save the picture of the overlay and then hide the overlay and save the underlying coin. There are many free online animated gif makers and I load the two images to one of them, adjust the speed, and save the result :). I've done dozens of them now so the whole process is pretty fast-- takes no more than 10 minutes, usually.
     
  11. DomitLover

    DomitLover New Member

    wow im truly impressed. my photoshop sucks . great job. thanks alot. also do you have any explaination on so many test cuts?
     
  12. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    No, but I don't find it particularly odd because there are so many other ancient coins with bunches of test cuts and punches. I suppose it may mean that the coin ended up in circulation far outside its original area.
     
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  13. PeteB

    PeteB Well-Known Member

    In the cobwebs of my old brain, I think I read someplace that some ancient counterfeiters, knowing that test cuts may be applied to their fake, actually made test cuts before they plated them. In that way, the test cut would display silver in the cut......leading some ancient banker/merchant to think it was genuine. But.....maybe not.
     
  14. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    I was thinking about this as well and it makes sense... Also, banker marks were sometimes used to proof the coin is not a counterfeit, but who knows even banker marks were counterfeited? No idea in that one.
     
  15. DomitLover

    DomitLover New Member

    interesting thought pete but I dont think that is the case for this since if it was a fourree we would see the core showing up after 1000s of years underground. but this coin has no copper core showing anywhere.
     
  16. PeteB

    PeteB Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that such was the case with your coin. I would have no way of knowing. It was merely an observation.
     
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