This is not a coin of Nektanebo II

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by TIF, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    I tend to disagree, but in a rather complicated way. I would put it like this. Coins themselves were not difficult to invent. They are surely a very simple obvious idea. What was difficult to invent was a completely new way of arranging both politics and economics around competition, markets, retailing etc. It seems that did start to happen in Sardis around 615 BC or so. Coins were crucial to it.

    Michael Mitchiner published a coin catalogue in two volumes (Ancient Trade and Early Empires - 1400 A4 pages!) in 2004. His central argument was that there was only one place that this form of coin using government appeared, and that was Sardis. The idea had spread from there to India by c. 460 BC, from there to China by about 500 BC. But the idea itself never spread to Egypt, nor to the central provinces of Persia. (In those two empires it seems that goods continued to be distributed more by priests than by markets, in ways somewhat like that which 20th century communists aspired to).

    As brought out by this thread, the Egyptian issues even of the 350’s BC or so were probably not tied to the government’s internal policies, rather were just to sort out one-off payments to foreign mercenaries. Seems to me the priests of Persia and Egypt probably resisted the idea of coin use to the very end, and the change came only through conquest. (Perhaps even we could compare matters to 20th century events, that some political economies repeatedly do better than others?)

    This just a quick sketch of why I would be more willing to “look down on”, or anyhow, criticise, Ancient Egyptian polity. Note that my opinion on this is a minority view, but I am not alone in holding it – am happy to produce a reading list on this, for anyone interested…...

    Rob T
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    How much do we know about the economy of pre-Ptolemaic Egypt? Most of what little I have read focuses on religion and afterlife. Were merchants independent businessmen or agents of the state? We know that scribes were highly valued. How much of their system was more like our credit card economy (but on paper records) rather than based on legal tender objects.
     
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  4. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    I found the book by Barry Kemp very good on this.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Ancient_Egypt.html?id=Jn2N_bQrzS8C&redir_esc=y

    Here is a sketch - mostly taken from what he says about the general picture – (taken from memory)

    People for the most part (peasants excluded) got a grain allocation from the Pharaoh according to their status. An aristocratic household would get a lot – more than they needed to consume. State workers got less, (and occasionally went on strike about that matter).

    A big aristocratic household might employ a guy full time to trade the excess grain for other goods and services the household needed to buy in. And so on down the line for smaller people. There would be a lot of the sort of awkward bartering of the sort that Aristotle talks about - as people moved out spare stuff in exchange for what they needed. Scenes painted in tombs might well represent markets that were a bit like what we would call car boot sales in the UK – except it was done by swapping.

    People did have conventional ideas about money values, expressed in weight of metal or volume of grain – and would use that to figure out the rough of value of everything else. But that was a kind of mental tool in their bargaining plans most times I suspect.

    It is much simpler to sell your stuff for coins and then use the coins to buy what you need. Pericles did this, Aristotle explains it. But the Egyptian state system relied upon a lot of peasants growing a lot of grain and giving to temples as a kind of tribute. Peasants kept some to eat and no doubt they kept back a bit of excess to swap for stuff too. But once you create coins and markets, you run the big risk of what the Egyptian state would see as a smallish black market turning into a really big one – peasants try to sell the lot for themselves - and the whole pharoanic system would come crashing down.

    My key point here is that the main problem was not about, as I see it, inventing coins. It was about who won and who lost out, in the transformation to coin use.

    Rob T
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  5. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Yes sir, I am very aware of ATEE. I own every volume Mr. Mitchiner has produced. I am somewhat unconvinced that coins spread from Greece to China and India. POSSIBLY India, but China had a continuity of bronze artifacts unbroken up to and through the proto-currency. India itself has some interesting proto-currency pieces that do not appear to be much affected by the Greek model and looks more locally derived. I agree that after Alexander most of the known world switched to Greek style coinage save for China and her tributaries.
     
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  6. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    There can't be any doubt that on TIF's coin a Pharao is depicted. This coin has been struck for the Arsinoites nome. This nome (old Egyptian administration district) was equal to the Oasis of Fayum. The Pharao is Amenemhet III, c.1842-1795 BC, of the 12th dynasty, the last one of the Middle Kingdom. He had significantly contributed to the Drainage and cultivation of the Oasis. A local Cult of this Pharao was wide spread in Fayum. Here is my coin:

    Egypt, Alexandria, Arsinoites Nome, Hadrian, AD 117-138
    AE - Obol, 19.19mm, 4.52g, 0°
    struck 126/127 (year 11)
    obv. AVT KAI - TPAI AΔPIANOC
    Bust, some drapery over l. shoulder, laureate, r.
    rev. APCI - L IA (year 11)
    Head of Amenemhet III, wearing Nemes and Uraeus snake, r.
    ref. Milne 1229; Dattari 6210; Emmet 1221; Geissen 3381/3382; BMC 72/73; SNG Copenhagen 1083/1084
    rare, F+
    nome_arsinoites_hadrian_Milne1229.jpg

    Best regards
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2019
  7. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Thanks for that information, Jochen!
     
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  8. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Nice, rare coin. I hear all Nomic coinage is horribly rare.
     
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  9. EWC3

    EWC3 (mood: stubborn)

    Great to hear you got ATEE. Seems to me Dr M does a huge amount of work and probably sees a limited return, often enough.

    I see where you are coming from.

    On India, we have no clinching evidence, but Mitchiner follows a similar track to Cribb. Also Hardaker thinks that at least the concept of coins likely came to India from the west. So there is a kind of consensus building, at least in the UK.

    On China - I too was at first taken aback by the Mitchiner suggestion, and his evidence concerning fish shaped things seems thin to me. However, if the chronology that people these days prefer is correct - earliest Chinese issues about 500 BC – then that alone points to the possibility that “the concept” of coinage arrived in China from Greece. All I can add is that over time I find that idea growing on me.

    Clearly if someone in China actually saw a Greeky type coin and got the drift of how they were being used, then he must have thought – “that’s not quite how I would do it”. But that would be a natural human trait too, I think.

    But my main point was about the mechanisms of change. On that I found books by P N Ure and Leslie Kurke very helpful

    Rob T
     
  10. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    This coin totally deserves its own thread, complete with humorous GIF.

    :)
     
  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    This make a great deal more sense when the person is identified as a particular Pharaoh rather than a generic head. He was a god of great local interest and seems appropriate for a coin. Thanks!
     
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  12. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    @Jochen, can you provide some links, article names, or books which give this information? When Doug asked how we knew it was a pharaoh, I first sought info about the nome to see if there was a particular pharaoh from there or otherwise associated with the nome but I didn't find anything definite. I see that Amenhemhat III made many improvements to the infrastructure of the nome but wasn't able to make the leap to him being represented on this coin.
     
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  13. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    Hallo TIF!

    With your question you have hit a sore point. My notes are coming from a time where I have placed not much importance on the sources of my records.

    Here is a small list from the web:
    (1) Angelo Geissen, Bemerkungen zu den Gau-Prägungen aus dem römischen Alexandria, p.844:
    "A look on the iconography of the reverses shows, that here only motives from the religious area have been choosed: The nomes of Upper- and Lower Egypt are represented by their local cults by depicting those deities which were worshipped here particularly."

    (2) Quinten Barney, Sobek: The Idolatrous God of Pharaoh Amenemhet III, in "Journal of the Book of Mormon and Other Restoration Scripture 22/2 (2013): 22–27"

    (3) Ingrid Blom-Böer, Die Tempelanlage Amenemhets III. in Hawara, 2004:
    "Nobody maintains himself so firmly in the Fayum as Amenemhat III does. After his long reign the temple complex probably becomes the residence of Amenemhat IV and afterwards of Sobekneferu, although final evidence for this assumption is not available. After their reigns, the complex is no longer used continuously. At around the end of the 13th Dynasty the site is left and the cult for Amenemhat III falls into oblivion, but is not given up entirely.
    The interest of the Ptolemaic dynasties for the Fayum causes a revival of the cult for Amenemhat III."

    (4) A new standard work is: Weber, Manfred / Geissen, Angelo, Die alexandrinischen Gaumünzen der römischen Kaiserzeit - Die ägyptischen Gaue und ihre Ortsgötter im Spiegel der numismatischen Quellen, 2013

    I haven't read it. The price is very high (€124.-)

    Best regards
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2019
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