About 15 years I started shopping for a French Gothic coin & didn't want to spend a lot of money on one. Steinberg's Inc. had an attractive example of an Ecu d'Or already in a PCGS slab for $650.00, pictured below, so I bought it. Can anyone refine the date range on the slab a little better & possibly which mint struck the coin? PCGS isn't known for slabbing ancient or Renaissance coins so I was surprised to see the coin in one of their slabs. Is the coin under-graded or is it my wishful thinking? Happy New Year to everyone .
Nice gold of Charles VI le Fol, AKA "The Mad". Charles VI "The Mad”, (1380 - 1422 A.D.) AR Blanc Guénar O: + KAROLVS: FRANCORV: REX; Shield of arms. R: + SIT: nOmE: DnI: BENEDICTV; Cross with two crowns and two lis. 2.9g 29mm DuP 377
Just for the hell of it I did a search on the PCGS archives & copied photos of this coin type that they have graded & was shocked at the results . The first two examples were sold on Ebay on March of last year for $1,300.00, each & graded MS62. The 3rd example was also graded MS62. Apparently there is a consistency problem in grading these coins ! After seeing these photos it seems pointless to assign a numerical grade to any Gothic period coins....
Hello Al Kowsky and happy new year to everyone, these Karolus the 6th ' écus d'or don't characterize my specification domain, but I know according to Duplessy that the first issue with distinguished mints (in fact, the third issue) is dated 1389-09-11. The first issue of the Karolus the 6th ' écus d'or are dated 1385-03-11, present no secret point (under a letter or beginning cross of the legend). That's the case here. The second one (1388-02-28) is just distinguished by the weight, but the difference is so tiny, nor considering the fabrication's tolerance, that it's impossible to differentiate them : 4,079g for the first issue / 3,990g for the second. The experts of the period who have noticed constant characteristics of specific mints, try to attribute mints to the undated coins of the period 1385-1389. You can see a clear point after the second R of FRANCORVM. I've never read anything about this particularity. I hope someone actually or further will be more precise. Best wishes.
Nice coin BUT it is definately undergraded. I have a NGC MS-64 Toulon Mint that is not as sharply detailed as yours. It would be sooooooo nice if the PGGS/ NGC people would add more details like name of ruler/ mint/ when it was struck/
Aestimare, Thank you for your valuable information , I knew someone in CT would come thru . I'm totally ignorant on Gothic period coinage & have no reference material of any value on the subject , yet I've seen other collectors point out the nuances as you've done . Gothic script has always confused me despite being a high point in the art style. I struggled over the old German script as seen in 19th century & earlier literature the same way .
panzerman, Thanks for your input, you confirmed my gut feeling . You're also right about 3rd party grading companies lack of info on their slabs . For the cost involved in slabbing & the amount of time we wait for a result they should be doing a better job .
I can't help you with variety attribution, but I will say you got a very nice price on that coin indeed, and if it's better than @panzerman's, that's really saying something!
PS- hammered gold and the grading services give me huge headaches. I had an episode last year that really annoyed me, but we won't get into that here. (I'm just crossing my fingers over the coin I have at PCGS right now...)
I believe that the lack of information on slabs is consistent with the reason for their existence in the first place. Ancient slabs were created to open the hobby to a new market --- people who knew nothing about ancients and were disinclined or afraid of the subject. They were not for you and I but for people more likely to be turned off by too much information. Slabs provide a security blanket but should not remind the target market of a parent or teacher nagging about doing your homework. In the pre-slab days, the collecting of ancient coins was reserved for people who wanted to learn about their coins and usually the history that went with them. Slabs opened the door for those who could care less about anything beyond the basics and that all important MS grade. David Sear offered an extra cost option with his basic certification where the purchaser was given a bit more explanation/education about the coin. I have seen very few of these and have no idea how many people paid the extra for this service. Today we see certificates by some sellers that include the full Wikipedia blurb brought to you by that modern invention 'cut and paste'. Now anyone can have all the text imaginable right at hand whether or not it is ever read or understood. The price is right. Asking the slabbers to reflect on everything pertinent to every coin submitted would only slow them us and raise the price. This might have been reasonable to expect when David Sear started issuing certificates 40+ years ago but now the demand for quantity outstrips the demand for data. If only we could program a computer to scan, identify and grade coins, the appropriate bar code could be generated to the Wikipedia page and send the product straight to encapsulation. Then we could do away with those pesky experts altogether. After a generation of people raised on only the info that fits, they will be deemed unnecessary expenses. Progress will not leave our hobby unchanged. Think now while it is still fashionable in some circles.
First of all, NICE COIN. The information you are seeking can be found by doing quite a bit of research. For this coin, the best research is probably in the French language. For a TPG to do that much research would be very costly and time consuming. Further more, that paper insert is small, where does the all of the info go that you think they should be providing? You might want to buy the necessary books to research the coin, maybe $300+. Then find someone who is FLUENT in the language if necessary and pay them for their service. More than likely the nearest date that can be attributed to said coin will be a date range i.e. 1380-85 for example. The TPG's main job is authentication, not grading. My opinion.
dougsmit, I think you may be missing the point of panzerman's comment & of 3rd party grading companies in general. Asking these companies to "name the ruler/ mint/ when it was struck/", when there is ample room on the slab is not asking for too much. I don't know any collectors who are "turned off by too much information". The primary reason slabbing companies perform there service isn't "to open the hobby to a new market", although they have done this, their primary purpose is to supply a 2nd opinion as to authenticity, whether a coin has been tooled or smoothed, & how the coin compares to others of the same type for style & appearance. No reasonable collector expects a "full Wikipedia blurb" from a 3rd party grading company, just basic identification information. When David Vagi took over the top spot at NGC for ancient coins I sent a sizable number of Diocletian's reform folli for slabbing. I requested that all those folli be identified by mint name & was given resistance until I spoke with Vagi personally. All those folli were identified by mint name & to this day all folli of that type are labled by mint name. I wish this was done for all Roman coins when possible. Older retired collectors, like you & I, with lots of exposure & experience along with a sizable library are not totally dependent on 3rd party slabbing companies, but many collectors who don't have the time, experience, & resources are.
tibor, You adroitly illustrate the comment I made to dougsmit's thread; please read it. I don't speak French or want to spend $300+ on reference material that I'd need translated in order to get basic information on the slabs label. I did get the information I wanted by posting the original thread on CoinTalk, thanks to knowledgeable members of this website.
Thank you Al Kowsky for your kind answer, I've tried to look for further informations, but I've been unsuccessful. Though, I have found two possible similar examples in: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k34177d/f137.item BULLETIN DE LA SOCIETE DE BORDA (1876-today) the 11th year 1886, p.51, example n°2 and 3. These coins come from a hoard found the 18th of november 1885 in Pontenx (on the French west coast, between the two mints of Bordeaux and Bayonne). 4116 silver coins and 45 gold coins. Restored to the municipality and sold, a new school has been bought. The two small X after REX are probably a slip : they usually mark the separation between two words, so they have no sensed place at the end of the titulature, just before the cross. Another slip is probably the point after IMPERAT that may have been printed as if it was the end of a sentence. Commonly, carvers of a same family, or who wanted to honor a predecessor could use the same distinctive symbol, and we can see perpetuated marks in numerous mints. I have found another gold coin with FRANCOR·VM, but from Franciscus I (1515-1547), so we can notice a much too long term from 1385 to expect a continuum of habits. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=815461 A general reference on the period is : DUPLESSY Jean, Monnaies françaises royales, I, Hugues Capet à Louis XII, Paris 1999. Circa 43 euros + shipping. But most of studies are disparate.
Aestimare, Many thanks again for your additional information. Members like you are the reason I treasure this website.
