Hungary 5 Pengö 1930, 2 variations?

Hello,

I have question regarding the coin above. According to the Krause world coins catalog, there are two variations of this coin:

512.1 - 1930 BP
512.2 - 1930 Proof, restrike

In my collection there is the first variation, but now I have to look for the other one as well. Why are there two variations, if the two coins are completely identical? How to find the other one or how to spot a proof coin?

Thanks.

 

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https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces18692.html

 

Thanks, but I already have all my coins put on that website.

Is this the proof one?


I made a comparison, and this is the regular one:

 

Just looks like it was harsh cleaned/polished. Wait for other opinions....

 

Thanks, I will wait for others. The level of detail is what bothers me - the coin still has nice sharp details.

 

According to Krause the Proof weighs 25.3300g and 0.5212 ASW and the circulation strike is 25.000g and 0.5144 ASW. I would weight the coin and see if it is different.

 

I don't have the proof one so I can't measure it.

 

That's interesting if it's true. I have a bunch of these, but they are all slabbed. Hungarian coins from this period and Artex restrikes are both areas I specialize in, and this coin is probably the one I find the most difficult to distinguish between originals and restrikes. I have never weighed them raw to see if there was a difference.

On one side there are examples that are unquestionably original, and on the other side, examples that are unquestionably restrikes. The problem is identifying between a gem+ original versus an impaired restrike. Some of the restrikes are semi-PL and even may have a cameo appearance, but the vast majority of restrikes have a matte finish like an original example would.

There are many Artex restrikes that are unmarked, so the general appearance of the coin can point you one way or another in determining originality, as with the other restrikes. Something that would point to a late die stage like a clash, crack, etc. would indicate an original. Sometimes the rims of the larger silver restrikes have planchet preparation marks that only occur on restrikes. Toning can also be an indicator. Since these were restruck in the late 60s, most are still bright white, or if toned, have a particular look to them.

 

I could be totally wrong, but the description in my edition of Krause leads me to believe that all the proofs are restrikes, with no original proofs listed. There is also a notation on the business strike that the edge has Raised, sharp reeding. No mention of reeding on the proof. I wonder if there is a difference. Also would the proofs have the BP mintmark? Some of the other denominations with restrikes are noted that they are not marked.

There is a note in Krause that the retrikes can be identified by a rosette in the vicinity of the mintmark.

 

I didn't know that this thing is so complicated. If I understand correctly there are actually three options:

original coin (or common coin, made for general use)
restrike (proof coin done in the same year as the original coin)
Artex restrike (proof coin done in the 60s)

If this is the case, then the more difficult question would be how to distinguish later Artex restrike from original restrike?

 

This I answered above.

For this issue there were no original proofs as far as I am aware. All proofs are restrikes, however, unlike most Artex restrikes, they are matte proofs (some issues have both proof finishes).

In general, smaller coins use either a rosette, UP, a non-issued date, or a different composition to denote a restrike. Some coins were restruck multiple times, where successive restrikings used different markings as restrike marks, or variations of the same restrike mark, creating many varieties.

For this particular issue, all restrikes are unmarked.

I consider artexveret.hu to be the authoritative source for restrike data, and they list this issue as being 25g. I would trust this site over Krause data any day of the week.
http://www.artexveret.hu/pengo-artex-utanveret/index.php

 

Actually, according to the website you posted, there are two restrikes of 5 Pengo 1930 - without any mark (1st of April 1967) and with UP mark (22nd of February 1965).

Here is an interesting discussion I found in russian (you can translate it easily) - http://coins.su/forum/topic/37771-5-pengo-1930-restraik/

It seems that the difference in weight (25 and 25.33 grams) could be reliable sign of a proof coin in this particular case, but I am not an expert on this.

 

Ah yes, I forgot the very early UP version, however, I have never seen this version. I suspect most were either not sold and destroyed or were sold as bullion on the French market. 1,000 piece restrikes tend to be very common if extant.

I see the discussion on your link. Very interesting. I will check Adamo later and see what they say regarding the weight.

 

I saw few of them on ebay, like this one:



It is interesting that all of these proofs (still not sure if they are really proofs) are always described to weight 25,33 or 25,4 grams (and not 25 grams). It would be interesting to see if the regular coins really weight 25 grams only, and proof coins little bit more.

 

Every catalog I have either lists it at 25g or doesn't list the weight. Might just be the official weight listed.

 

not sure if this helps ? but in my very old 2002 Krause catalog it lists the weights for both.

KM 512.1 weighs- 25 grams or .5145 oz
KM 512.2 restrike weighs - 25.33 grams or .5213 oz.

 

In my 2018 Krause catalog almost the same values are mentioned:

KM 512.1 - 1930 BP: 25 grams, 0.5144 oz
KM 512.2 - 1930 Proof, restrike: 25.33 grams, 0.5212 oz

It is still not clear for me why the restrike gets separate catalog number (other coins have restrikes as well) and are all of proofs made by Artex?

 

The weight difference would necessitate a different number. I would want to verify this though first hand, since Krause has a lot of mistakes. Artex made official proof restrikes in the mid 60s (I created a thread on Artex here a while back with some info if you want to pull that up). There were restrikes prior to Artex, and there are modern restrikes as well from various sources, both official and not. The official modern ones tend to have the fineness on one of the faces as a restrike mark. The mintages are a lot lower than Artex generally did, and the prices are higher as a result.

 

Yes, it would be useful to see if the weigh difference is real, since it is generally hard to determine originals from restrikes (expect pieces with UP mark). I read you topic on Artex restrikes, quite interesting.

For me, the first source of information is Krause, but I do know that some mistakes are inevitable. Did you find more information in other catalogs (namely hungarian ones)?

 

Krause is good as a general catalog for looking up something quickly that you know nothing about. When you are looking for more in depth information though it becomes rather lacking and is full of errors. There are Hungarian coins in Krause that are badly misattributed, many that are omitted, and even a couple that are listed that I am convinced do not actually exist.

While there are many works that include the Horthy issues, the two major catalogs that cover those coins are:

Huszár Lajos Münzkatalog Ungarn von 1000 Bis Heute (1979)

While Huszár authored many books on Hungarian numismatics, this is his major work. It is frequently cited with his catalog system referred to as "Huszár". Copies can be found in either Hungarian or German, but German is more commonly available. Huszár does not list weights, however, his catalog is extensive and has photographs for each type.



ifj. Adamovszky István Magyar Érme Katalógus 1848-2012 (2012)

Adamovszky István was very prolific, writing works on Hungarian coins and banknotes. He died in 2012, and this book was published by his son. It is an update to his father's previous book by the same title (covering 1848-2010), along with updates and revisions; making it the definitive version. His catalog system is cited as "Adamo". You can buy this book directly from the Hungarian mint's website. This book has great photographs and includes as many "other strikes" - restrikes, trials, patterns, forgeries, etc. as he was aware of. The one one minor criticism I have about his catalog is that he lumps "minor" type changes together instead of splitting them out as other types (though he does note them). As a nice bonus, this catalog also includes a price guide (in Euro), though it is beginning to get a little dated.

If there is one book you should own regarding Horthy era coinage, it is this one. Please note, this book is written entirely in Hungarian.