Does anyone know of a good online resource for IDing Cup coin's? I have a pile that I've cleaned up but am scratching my head trying to ID them. Thanks in advance
If I was you I would start with separating your dupes. I can see several of the same types. Your grouping looks like it is all from the 12th century, you will find those easier to attribute than the 13th and 14th century coinage. To start look in wildwinds.com Under the rulers Alexius to Alexius III, I see several Manuel Comnenus in there already. After looking more closely look at Manuel and then later. Most are Manuel.
Cheers for that. The fact you can tell all of that from 1 bad picture makes me realize I have a lot to learn. It would make sense that they are all from 1 or 2 rulers as they were part of a horde find. When I got them they they showed no details at all and have taken a looonnnnggg time to clean up.
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/byz/manuel_I/i.html I think you will have some fun working on them, it will be an easier batch to do. If you get stuck, feel free to post.
When I work on groups of these, I usually sort them by obverse type (Christ, Mary, high back throne, low back throne, etc), and then sort each pile by reverse type (Mary crowning emperor, emperor standing facing, etc). Then you can ID them by the pile. They are actually relatively easy to ID, the tricker ones are the later Palaeologean ones, but I don't see any of those from the photos you posted. Another way to search is to go on vcoins or CNG's archives or something, and do a search for "Trachy Christ" or "Trachy Mary" and scroll through the results. There are a number of them in there that will be an easy match.
That's a nifty pile of Byzantine cup coins, Jason NZ. Sorry I can't help with attributions... Actually, if it is okay to hijack a thread a little bit, I just got 3 Byzantine cup coins from eBay for $0.99. One of them is so crusted over with green I gave up on it, but the other two are actually quite nice (by my standards). Anyway, I spent a lot of time trolling online pictures of trachys (trachea?) and feel as if I am close, but not quite there yet. I think they might be: Isaac II Angelus Billon Aspron Trachy (1185-1195 A.D.) Constantinople Mint [MP] - ΘV, Mary seated with head of infant Christ / [I CAA KI OC] left, DEC PO TH C rt., Isaac, standing with sceptre and akakia, [hand of God upper rt.]. SB 2003; BMC 19-31. But I have some doubts about mine being SB 2003. The emperor's arm is held upward, crooked, on mine and his scepter seems to be more of a labrum than a cross (as typically described). Also, the size of the flans as well as the size of the image/legends are different. I don't have enough experience to be comfortable assigning "variations" to these. Here are the sizes: (3.19 grams / 22 mm) (1.39 grams / 22 mm) Here are the photos. Any help would be greatly appreciated:
@Marsyas Mike The first one is correct. The second one is more than likely a Latin imitation or Bulgarian imitation. They get a lot more complicated. Not as easy to attribute.
If you dont want to buy any books there is one series which has been digitized. The Dumbarton Oaks Collection is a standard work for all Byzantine coins. Hard copies would set you back many hundreds of dollars, but the museum has made them available completely free: https://www.doaks.org/research/publications/books#b_start=0&c6=byzantine+coins There are nine books in the series.
Thanks, BenSi! That the puny one is an imitation makes sense. The style is a bit coarser, I think. I should add that while I was researching these, I was quite thrilled to find out what an akakia is - new to me. Wikipedia (for anybody who might not know): "The akakia (Greek: ἀκακία, literally "guilelessness") was a cylindrical purple silk roll containing dust, held by the Byzantine emperors during ceremonies, and symbolizing the mortal nature of all men. It possibly developed from the mappa, the cloth used by the Roman consuls to start the races at the hippodrome."
Do you consider these attributable with a high degree of certainty by a practiced worker or would three experts in the series differ in their opinions of a good percentage of them? I have this as a Bulgarian imitation of Alexius III but have less than a 50-50 degree of confidence. What does one look for that narrows down such coins other than seeking similarities with coins at best guessed by someone else? The face seems well drawn to be imitative leaving open the possibility that it is just low grade and official???
The whole concept of Bulgarian imitations is a bit of a messy subject Doug, some believe the Bulgarian issues were official and not imitative , I personally steered clear of the whole subject mostly because I was not attracted to the coinage. That example has a very attractive obverse, beautifully created. However, if I am seeing the scale of the portrait on the flan correctly then it seems undersized. Even more than a clipped official issue. I personally would think it was an official issue that was unprofessionally clipped at a later date to make it acceptable for the coins sized during that time.
Identifying the Latin and later coinage is, definitely, not easy. There are a lot of twists and turns and sometimes, even the best quality coins ends up being difficult to pinpoint. The problem is exasperated by the various sizes of the coin dies (large, medium, and small) and the dreaded clipping of coins. There aren't many references that covers this period well, aside from CLBC (Catalogue of Late Byzantine Coins). Sometimes, you run into coins that nobody has spotted before (or you can't find any references to it):
It tend to agree and disagree and that is the problem with "Bulgarian Issues". I agree that it is messy and we don't know whether it was imitation or actual coinage. However, I would categorize Doug's coin as an imitation as opposed to one of the known official Byzantine/Crusader State coinages. The giveaway is the dots in the loros which is indicative of Bulgarian Imitation coinage...
oh wow. I didn't know they had forged cup coins too. lot of work for not much in return . darn I should check all mine. I have dozens
Doug, I liked the workmanship for the obverse and it is of a quality of any official mint but QG has been focusing on this field of collecting so I personally would go with his answer.
The coins got imitated across the Balkans and into Sicily in various metals: Normans in Sicily: Roger II (1130-1154) AR Ducale, Palermo (Spahr 72; MEC 212; Biaggi 1770) Obv: + IC • XC • RG • IN AE TRN (Jesus Christus regnat in aeternum); Bust of Christ facing, wearing nimbus cruciger, pallium and colobium, and raising right hand in benediction; in left hand, book of Gospels Rev: King Roger and his son Roger, duke of Apulia, staff with cross at each end between them, beneath the king R RX SCLS (Rogerius Rex Siciliae), beneath the duke, R • D X • AP (Rogerius Dux Apuliae) and AN R X (Anno decimo del regno) between them Byzantine Empire: Isaac II Angelus, 1st Reign (1185-1195 CE) BI Aspron Trachy, Constantinople (Sear 2003; DOC 3b) Obv: MP - ΘV in upper field; Virgin nimbate, wearing tunic and maphorion, seated upon thrown with back; holds beardless, nimbate head of Christ on breast Rev: ICAAKIOC ΔЄCΠOTHC in two columnar groups; Full-length figure of emperor wearing stemma, divitision, collar-piece, jeweled loros of simplified type, and sagion; holds in right hand scepter cruciger, and in left, anexikakia; Manus Dei in upper right field Bulgaria, Second Empire: Petar IV (1185-1197) Æ Trachy, Uncertain Mint (Raduchev & Zhekov 1.1.1; Youroukova & Penchev 31-3; Dobrinić & Dimnik 1.1.1) Obv: IC XC in field; Christ standing facing on daïs, raising hand in benediction Rev: ◉/Δ/Ο to left, B? and ΡШΜΝ in ligature to right; Petar IV standing facing on daïs, holding patriarchal cross Dim: 27mm, 2.79 g, 6h Hungary: Belá III (1172-1196) Æ Follis (Huszár-72, Unger-114) Obv: SANCTA—MARIA, Nimbate Madonna facing the front, scepter in right hand, infant Jesus in left. Two crosses above. Rev: REX BELA on left, REX STS on right; Two kings seated on thrones facing, each holding scepter and globus cruciger; long cross between. Inverted crescent and three lines in exergue. Latin Rulers of Constantinople: Anonymous (1204-1261) Æ Trachy, Constantinople (Lianta 103-106; CLBC 11.31.1) Obv: O/Δ/ΓI to left, O/C to right; Full-length figure of beardless and nimbate saint wearing short military tunic, breastplate and sagion; right hand spear resting over shoulder; left hand holding shield Rev: Full-length figure of emperor, wearing stemma, divitision, collar-piece and paneled loros of simplified type; right hand holds trilobate scepter; left hand holds globus cruciger. Kingdom of Thessalonica: John Comnenus-Ducas (1237-1242) BI Trachy, Thessalonica (Sear 2210; DOC IV, Type L B.25a; Grierson 1223; CLBC 14.13.3; Lianta 401-404; Bendall, Notes 20/III) Obv: Head of cherub nimbate, with wings Rev: IШ - OAΓOC; Full-length figure of emperor on left, and of beardless, nimbate saint (Demetrius?) in military dress; between them cross, surmounted by globule on long shaft. Emperor wears stemma, divitision, collar-piece, and jeweled loros of simplified type; right hand holds anexikakia; Saint wears short military tunic, breastplate and sagion; left hand holds sword resting over shoulder Empire of Nicaea: John III Ducas-Vatazes (1222-1254) BI Trachy, Magnesia (Sear-2099; DOC IV, Type K 45; Lianta 241-42) Obv: Ο AΓΙΟC ΔHMHTPIOC in two columnar groups. Full-length figure of St. Demetrius, beardless and nimbate, wearing short military tunic, breastplate and sagion; right hand holds spear; left hand holds shield Rev: IШ ΔЄCΠ-OΔϪKAC; Emperor seated upon throne with back, wearing stemma, divitision, collar-piece and paneled loros of simplified type; right hand holds labarum-headed scepter; left hand holds globus cruciger A rare Serbian trachy is currently on CNG and it blew past my budget : SERBIA. Stefan Radoslav. King, 1228-1234. BI Trachy (32mm, 3.00 g, 6h). Ras mint. Christ Pantocrator enthroned facing; barred IC XC across upper field / (CT)ЄΦAN[OC PIZ OΔ] KONCTANTH, Stefan, holding akakia, and St. Konstantin, holding cross-tipped scepter, standing facing, holding patriarchal cross between them. Jovanovic 4; Ivanisevic 1.4; D&D 1.2.3.
A proper response is at hand to decipher this enigma. There are several ways of determining whether these coins are imitation or not, but unfortunately, nothing is foolproof. The Bulgarian imitations typically have tin mixed in as opposed to silver, like the original trachea, so, without a metallurgical analysis, we need to rely on clues in the coin itself. The primary identification is the loros on the reverse of the coin. In the original coinage, the loros is always different between the Emperor and the saint: The official coinage have the following known loros, with three different types for the emperor and only one known for the Saint: For majority of the imitations, the loros are always identical. So, going back to @dougsmit coin, we see: which is clearly the same, hence, an imitation. Another clue to this enigma, is the nimbate saint in the original coin: Majority of the imitations do not have this. Unfortunately, it is not clear in the aforementioned example, so here is one from mine: There are other clues, but this is the two prominent ones. Hope this helps... QG
Why did you pick this id for this issue? I'm asking because I too favor an unpopular idea, rather than the conventional Mankaphas, although not Peter.
The attribution of that coin has always been a contention between Theodore Mancaphas and Petar I of Bulgaria. The original attribution was towards Petar and most Bulgarian references still have it listed as such. The re-attribution to Theodore Mancaphas was the result of Grierson & Hendy in DOC. The history of this attribution is clearly indicated in DOC, Part IV Volume I. Please see pages 392-395. Of course, we can attribute this as Mancaphas as well, but when I bought it, it was attributed as Petar I
I think it was in the 80s when it was still hip to assign local (and often nationalist) tones to everything, from pottery to coins. My favorite (although unlikely, at least in relation to the Mankaphas theory) is the Theodore Branas, as Caesar of the Latin Empire and Lord of Adrianople, Apros and Demotica/Didymoteichon in Thrace, theory, as recorded by Docev in 1990.
