A Question Posed to All of You Dealers...

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by JCro57, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. JCro57

    JCro57 Making Errors Great Again

    I was in a coin shop recently, and a couple kids (maybe late teens or very early 20s) who looked like thugs asked to sell their PCGS slabbed 3/4 oz. gold bullion coins.

    The kids didn't know it was not a full ounce, didn't know if they were foreign or American coins, and didn't know how to get the coins out of the slab.

    The dealer did not ask them a single question (e.g. how did you acquire these, whose they were before you acquired them, etc.). Clearly, these items did not belong to these kids but the dealer bought them anyway. The dealer did, however, get a copy of the kid's license and bought them for 10% below spot.

    As a dealer or a buyer, do you feel the dealer acted responsibly by not asking questions about how they acquired them when they were probably acquired under questionable circumstances?
     
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  3. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    I think so. For no other reason than preservation. Many years ago I purchased four nice Franklin halves from a fellow wanting to use them to buy beer at a nightclub. He didn’t have any business with those halves and I couldn’t stand the thought of them rattling around in a cash register.
     
  4. alurid

    alurid Well-Known Member

    What does the law require that the shop operator do?
     
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  5. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    (I'm not a dealer)
    Do you know the dealer in question?
    Maybe he is a nervous individual who is easily intimidated? He either didn't want problems with the "thugs" or..
    Maybe he didn't care where the slabs came from and all he thought about was making a profit.

    It's hard to say. Every situation is unique. I was once in a Pawn Shop where the guy freely displayed all his silver coins on the counter with me.. He said that I look like a trustworthy man and that he usually doesn't pull out the tray for any others.

    I also once went to accompany an old freind of mine, who is a thug, to another Pawn Shop where he was trying to get money for a stolen watch with serial numbers. We were both kicked out of the shop! This was many years ago.. A very embarrassing moment for me!
     
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  6. LA_Geezer

    LA_Geezer Well-Known Member

    Good question.

    I left my college class ring sitting on my kitchen counter while a painter was working in the house. When I discovered it was gone, I called the police who told me while they were here investigating the crime that unless I caught the thief red-handed and held him at bay while my call was being answered, there was little I could do. The other policeman who came added after a brief pause that the ring had been melted within 15 minutes after the pawn shop bought it anyway.
     
  7. JCro57

    JCro57 Making Errors Great Again

    I do know the dealer who has been in the business longer than I've been alive. I am sure he has seen this several times a year. I am just thinking that if it were my business, I would ask those questions. I would want it known that thieves shouldn't come here. I would also put a notice up that for all gold purchases or rare coins I make, each item is photographed and sent to local police departments.
     
  8. JCro57

    JCro57 Making Errors Great Again

    What is the law in your state about what happens if a dealer buys stolen merchandise? I think in NY, you have to return the item and then go after the thief for the money.
     
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  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Every state is different but from what I have seen, most are at least similar. Here in FL -

    They impose numerous restrictions and prohibitions upon persons transacting purchases or sales of secondhand precious metals, including: (1) a requirement that dealers keep detailed records of each purchase transaction, including a photograph or fingerprint of the seller; (2) a requirement that purchased goods be retained within the county in an unaltered condition by the dealer for a period of 15 days following the transaction; (3) a requirement that the dealer submit all records of purchase transactions to the county sheriff and municipal police department within 24 hours of the transactions; (4) a provision that the dealers' records shall be subject to inspection by all law enforcement officers and shall be preserved for a period of three years; (5) a provision prohibiting a dealer from purchasing any item of precious metal from a person under the age of 18 years. *1009 Failure to comply with the provisions of the statutes constitutes a first degree misdemeanor.

    And there are additional rules and regs that differentiate between bullion coins and coins with numismatic value, coins made into jewelry, etc etc.

    Basically as long as they do that they are not required to do anything else. Of course they could exercise their own judgement regarding refusing to make an offer or buy any time they wanted to. But if they did that too often they'd soon be out of business. And there would never be any guarantees that their judgement was correct - in either direction.
     
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I think it is pretty much the same most places.
     
  11. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    I'm not a dealer, but I would suspect at least two things probably happened that weren't clearly visible in the transaction you described:

    1. I would strongly hope that the dealer checked the coins through the list of reported stolen coins maintained by NCIC. This is made easier by the fact that the coins were in PCGS holders.

    2. If the dealer suspects the coins were stolen, it is far easier to carry out the transaction, alert the police, and get it sorted out in the end. The alternative is to confront the thugs, which may lead to getting shot. I don't think the dealer really wanted that.
     
  12. Nyatii

    Nyatii I like running w/scissors. Makes me feel dangerous

    Most pawn dealers cache their metals and send them in groups to be melted if that is what they are going to do with them. They don't melt on the spot.

    In my area, the police routinely visit pawn shops to check for stolen items if it is a new theft, and send out lists of items every so often. I'm guessing they also do the same for coin shops if there have been collectible coins/bills stolen.
     
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  13. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    This is about the same in my state for pawn shops. I'm not sure of the laws for coin shops but they fill out a bill of sale and ask for ID if they don't know you. They don't have to report purchases to the PD. The police can come in and take stolen property. Without a bill of sale the dealer is guilty of having stolen goods.
     
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  14. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    That was what I suspected. Possession of stolen goods is just that. Regardless of how you may have taken possession..... I would bet my bottom dollar with technology being what it is these days that pawn & coin dealers likely have access to reported stolen items.
     
  15. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    If the dealer in question is the one I'm thinking of, I'm not remotely surprised and in fact would consider your experience relatively innocuous compared to other yet still similar behaviors he's long engaged in.
     
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  16. LA_Geezer

    LA_Geezer Well-Known Member

    So the cop was lying to me?
     
  17. Nyatii

    Nyatii I like running w/scissors. Makes me feel dangerous

    I think he was trying to smooth things over and give you no hope.
     
  18. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Celebrating 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

    I was in a bar in a small Nebraska town back in the 60's. I noticed that the person sitting at the bar closest to me was spending proof coins for beer. At the time proof sets had 91 cents in them and cost $2.10 from the mint. I figured they were stolen as across the street there was a coin shop and the owner would be glad to give $2.10 for them. The guy could have got a few more beers by selling them. Also, a block away was the Police station. I reported my observation and moved on.
     
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  19. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Yes, because what else could he do?

    If the dealer tries to confront the sellers, or detain them and call the police, he's potentially risking his life -- yours, too, if you're in the store at the time. And what would the police do? Where's the evidence these were stolen? The owner might not even have realized yet that they were missing.

    If he just quietly turns them down, what has he done to help? They'll take them to the pawn shop down the street, where the proprietors won't know any more about the coins than the "new owners" do. They'll only get 50% of melt, but who cares? They're into them at 0% of melt.

    I can imagine a dealer who wouldn't have anything to do with coins brought in like this. I'm not so sure I can say that I've met any, though.
     
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  20. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    It's beside the main point of your post, but what country produces 3/4 oz gold bullion coins? Just curious because I'm not that familiar with world gold bullion coins. I don't think the US mint makes gold bullion coins of that size.

    Cal
     
  21. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    I think if one opens a store with a sign “PAWN SHOP” he is inviting thugs with stuff of questionable origin to come in and do business. These places ain’t Saks Fifth Avenue.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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