fake 1907 British Sovereign

In the field of numismatics, experts can identify fakes by appearance. There are many books on the subject. Destructive testing is simply not used.

People who know what they are doing would never take a coin to a jewelry store for testing. That's like taking your child to the veterinarian for surgery because they both work on mammals.

 

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@fretboard haha I thought I would get some historical and/or scientific context as to how coins are minted and the statistical variations!

And I disagree: trusting people blindly is for the birds. A car is only new before it is driven off the lot. Same with coins. Anything circulated, no matter how pretty it is, is "damaged" by definition. Therefore, scratch-testing is mandatory to guarantee authenticity. You wouldn't buy a pretty used Benz without having it inspected, would you? Even if it is a classic SLR, 1 out of however many remaining.......

 

@Jaelus If the field of numismatics, their livelihood depends on "being correct". And since profession coin cons have existed since coins were first minted, said experts are also subject to fakes. And if they want to continue in the field, can they ever admit to being faked? No, because their reputation depends on it. Again, scratch-testing is only "destructive" in YOUR HEAD. The coin, if circulated, is USED. Period. It's damaged. Period. That's what "circulated" means: it's a used car. Doesn't matter if it has 1 mile or 10 miles on it. It's not new, and acid-testing is 1 "fool proof" method of proving authenticity. I don't have a PMV but will ask the local coin dealers if they have one. And the specific gravity test, although scientific, can also be faked with tungsten. However, apparently tungsten being so dense is hard to use to make fakes. But that doesn't mean it won't be done by PIRATES......

 

This is not true. It is only used for YOUR own assurance.
By all means if you want to relegate your own coins to being ONLY
melt value that is your choice.

Collectors and numismatist use the surfaces luster color and appearance to judge a coins authenticity.

Scratch testing should only be used as a last resort.

 

Acid tests aren't really fool proof as they have a shelf life. But I will just assume yours is fine.

No matter what your defense is, valid or not; is not doing you any favors. You continually fail to understand that you posted in a forum for collectors. If you bought the coin at spot, then great do with it what you will. But if you paid a premium because of what it is then you are just doing yourself a disservice by not just admitting you screwed up; that hole you dug is quite big.

I would love to know how you would go about authenticating a baseball card.

 

That's right teh_admiral, the further you take this subject the worse it looks for you. The gold sovereign in your pic looks genuine, period! We have all stepped on something so to speak in the hobby of buying and selling coins. We admit our mistakes, learn a lesson from it and we move onward to the next coin. Good luck with the grief you are causing yourself.

 

@Pickin and Grinin Sorry, but you just made my point for me: you are all relying on VISUAL "guarantees" of authenticity based on an expert's opinion, an expert whose livelihood depends on being infallible. That is by no means a scientific guarantee, and what APMEX says about me is true in ANY circumstance: there's no proof that the coin wasn't switched with a fake at any time. And I said melt + emotional value, which is what @TyCobb means by "premium" : everyone pays a "premium" because we all want the coin for something other than melt value. Which is exactly what I said: an emotional judgement. The perfect example is APMEX double eagles: they've got MS-62's for under 1500 (last I checked), but on Ebay MS-62's are going in the 1500-2000 range. Because people are buying with their EMOTIONS and not any scientific, measurable value. Therefore, I did NOT screw up; everything I've said including the analogy to a used car has been spot-on ;D A baseball card is ALL emotional value; it has zero value to someone who doesn't even know who the player is or who doesn't care about baseball. Metals and minerals have "intrinsic" value, meaning utilitarian like tools or dinnerware. @fretboard And sorry, but it is only looking bad for everyone who's sitting on untested silver and gold. Because they can't bear to admit "stepping on something" or that their trustworthy dealer has never "stepped on something" or that a company like APMEX that has to deal in larger volumes might get swindled by PIRATES who've taken the time to reproduce 18k plated coppers or silver obols with authentic "wear" damage...

The only grief I'm getting is from everyone who doesn't want to believe that they could have been had or their friend could have been had. If the coin shops were open today, I'd have already called them all looking for an XRF or the U of M for someone to help with a specific gravity test... I'm still open to hearing about histories of manufacture and how that affects content, coin-related science and histories......

 

That's a lot of text to walk around how you would test the authenticity of a baseball card.

 

@TyCobb I didn't walk around it, I led up to it with a good setup! Like the 0-2 pitch... ;D

 

Change that to "Scratch testing is only evil if the coin has numismatic vaue over and above that of the bullion value". If a coin does have numismatic value, which can be considerable, then scratch testing WILL drop the value. Often significantly

Several have contributed telling you that if you believe it to be a fake to return it.

They problem here as I see it, and the reason for the attitutes, is that you are only concerned about the metal content and you have come to ask on a forum of coin collectors that care more about the coins themselves and to a less degree the metal content. What you need is a bullion forum of people only interested in metal content.

 

I think your coin is just fine. By fine, I mean genuine. It’s certainly damaged now from scratching it. No one who knows what they’re doing would ever do that. If you don’t believe that, coin collecting might not be your thing.

 

@Conder101 Honestly, that statement confuses me: how can anyone be a coin collector without caring about the metal content? By that logic, well-produced fakes are ok? Because even a pro is gonna miss a well-produced fake now and again, otherwise other numismatists wouldn't have written the US Mint about the prevalence of fakes like in a link I linked. If you were to say, "It was difficult to control quality when Britain was minting sovereigns, and they are known to vary from 18k-22k", then I might take you seriously because there must be some historical references or tested coins that led to that conclusion. But the fact that thickly-plated fakes will pass most tests only reinforces the need to know with 100% certainty. Again, you wouldn't buy a car without starting the engine, would you? @Nathan401 And that's what I'm attempting to ascertain: whether or not my sovereign is genuine even tho it's +18k and not 22k. Is that just normal variability with 100-year old casting methods? Or were they not even cast and instead stamped and cut like old cobs? (I honestly don't remember from my research...) Because my escudos are 22k; was Spain just "better" at minting coins? And again, the car analogy: any coin that's not uncirculated is "damaged" by definition. And by definition, the same thing APMEX says about returns, no one knows with absolute certainty that it didn't pass through the hands of an expert forger / pirate / Alibaba buyer-re-seller. It's just the unfortunate truth that people refuse to believe could possibly happen to them......

 

Wow you REALLY don't understand coin collecting AT ALL do you? If anyone doubted that before, they sure don't now.

 

@Jaelus What I understand is that coins are minted at known karats / %, and if a coin varies from that there ought to be a legitimate reason i.e. quality control or theft issues. And what everyone understands is that if it's not the same as historically known values, then it's probably a fake. Which is why everyone's so upset: they don't know with certainty that theirs are fakes or not. I've BEEN asking over and over: who's got some ACTUAL coin knowledge esp. related to sovereign minting and why there's such a LARGE variation in % (i.e. why mine's only +18k and not 22k, which the specific gravity test will confirm/deny when I have it done)? If you don't care about metal content, then you obviously don't care about fakes making it into your collection, because again, like I LINKED previously, many numismatists are so upset about the PREVALENCE of fakes they're pushing the US Mint to do something about it.........

 

It is a normal 22k Sovereign. Your scratch test is/was flawed. Apmex is reliable, and if I were them I’d tell you to pound sand if you tried to return it. You damaged it. You want expert opinions? You’ve gotten plenty throughout the thread. Nobody told you what you wanted to hear, so you argue. Good night.

 

@Nathan401 Good night to your ignorant self: your OPINIONS are flawed. Acid-testing is among the most accurate scientific tests, and just because APMEX is APMEX doesn't mean they won't get had by pro fakers. "Expert" opinions are only that: OPINIONS. Anyone hating on scratch-testing, you included, are being told what YOU don't want to hear: you have NO IDEA what your coins actually are, and you're going on WORD and SIGHT alone to determine quality. Which is the mark of a fool. Which is how bad houses and lemon cars get sold and why I linked a page where REAL numismatists are upset at the fakes. From 2017, so recently. Just because you're a noob who doesn't like the accurate analogy of circulated coins to used cars doesn't make it any less valid. And just because you have NO IDEA except based on the word of others doesn't mean your coins are ACTUALLY what they are.

If you had any real KNOWLEDGE (i.e. the British minting process versus the Spanish), then you might be respectable. But as it is your word means NOTHING as the jewelers who tested my gold are master professionals who sell to the Vikings and other A-list clientele. Jealous much? I'm still waiting on ACTUAL numismatists who have studied HISTORY and SCIENCE to provide ACTUAL reasons why my sovereign is +18k and not 22k. And no I don't want "expert" OPINIONS; I want actual NUMISMATIST FACTS i.e. the quality control for sovereign-minting, known variability, etc. Just because you have some coins and don't know whether or not they're real does NOT make you an "expert". And if you were so "expert" you would know how to test metals and minerals without "damaging" them. But since it's already left the mint (i.e. a car driven off the lot) it's already BY DEFINITION "damaged."

Any other idiots want me to repeat myself for the 5th time? Or are there any other ACTUAL recommendations? I have to find someone to do the specific gravity test yet.....

 

Quick update: APMEX has issued an RMA, and I will be returning the sovereign. This type of service PROVES APMEX reliability: they stand behind their 100% guarantee. And I held them to it by having my coin tested, and I WILL buy from them again. Most likely a coin that has already been certified. And if I can afford an uncirculated coin, rest easy for I will NOT have it scratch-tested. IF I can AFFORD a "new car" ;D

 

The only idiot would be whoever scratches coins to figure metal content.

 

I’d imagine an XRF analyzer would be the way to go. If only Apmex and I knew that...but then again, we’re just idiots. According to you.

 

@Nathan401 Yes, you are an idiot. Since I posted a link where numismatists use SCIENCE and MATH to prove that an XRF only goes a few MICRONS deep, very easily FAKED OUT by electroplated FAKES. APMEX KNOWS this and is offering a full REFUND, because I didn't accuse THEM of faking it but accidentally letting one get past. Idiots like you "don't care about metal content" = will buy FAKES but THINK they're "real" because someone TOLD you so...