fake 1907 British Sovereign

Look, you're obviously not going to heed any of the good advice you might get here. To anyone else reading this thread, realize you don't take a coin to a jeweler to verify authenticity if you know what you are doing.

 

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@Jaelus Did you or anyone else even bother to read the links?? Of course you do, to verify its karat / %. Just because you know someone who's "in the biz" doesn't mean he/she is immune to fakes. Because again : PIRATE. Do you all think the experts don't have a stake in remaining the experts? Do you think they can handle the ding to their reputation if they were to admit being had? APMEX knows what they're doing, except the sovereign I received is NOT 22k. So who knows who's doing what? Because I KNOW my sovereign isn't 22k, but obviously APMEX didn't or they wouldn't have sold it. And again, go back to the link where other numismatists break down the mathematics behind an XRF. Because if you don't understand the math behind the XRF test, then I don't consider you to be a real coin collector...

And I didn't ask anyone for their opinions on scratch testing; I asked what do you all do when you KNOW the coin isn't the karat you were told. But I guess none of you would know since no one has the minerals to have their metal tested. Everyone just wants everyone else to take their word as gold. Go YouTube the Edward Bernays clip where he goes on Letterman and says, "[marketing] is about you calling me doctor and other people believing it."

 

Again: does anyone actually KNOW any HISTORY? i.e. "When the Brits minted sovereigns alloys ranged from __ to __..." The standard variation in minting millions of coins? I've gotten 1 useful reply in verifying that sovereigns are more copper-colored than other 22k coins, but that still leaves the acid test proving my sovereign at less than 22k. Or any other science reasonings as to why my sovereign is not 22k? And what do you all DO when you know your % isn't what you were told? Or has no one ever found out their gold isn't the % they were sold? Am I #first ???

 

Obviously the only true way is to cut in half.

In all seriousness, you just stated why scratch testing is useless. So why did you scratch test? We are talking about coins where most people want them as flawless as possible.

You are talking like a jeweler or bullion investor; not a coin collector. Perhaps you posted in the wrong subforum.

 

Email the seller and explain that you have concerns about the purity and would like an exchange or a refund. I doubt they will since they may think it is you that is substituting the coin on them. If you convince them you are sincere , they might do so, but insist you think it is a fake, so they can't blame you. You can do the ultrasonic velocity testing if wanted. there are some such machines at bullion dealers. I would be surprised if your dealer doesn't have one or sells them as detection of fakes is an important part of their supply chain. They are the only way to test through the whole coin/bar.
It is obvious that you are upset at this, but the members are trying to help you, they could have just ignored your posts , so have patience with them. Jim

 

@TyCobb Scratch testing is only useless if you know 100% that the uncirculated coin you are looking at is what the seller says it is. And even then you DON'T know because fakes are rampant, as discussed in the link I posted. Unless you refined the metal yourself and poured it yourself. If your coin is anything other than mint, uncirculated, it only makes SENSE as a coin collector OR bullion investor to have it scratch tested. Because ONLY then will you know 100% the karat/% is as-stated. Otherwise it's like @Pickin and Grinin and I said, "Caveat emptor." How do YOU know that the "pros" at any coin meet are hawking REAL coins? They could very well be the ones buying Alibaba money and mixing it in. (For the record, I am Chinese Maybe they don't get to the final table in poker as often as they want but put their skills to use elsewhere. PIRATE.

As I was researching XRF, someone else used a sigma PMV and said they almost bought a bunch of gold Pandas because the one in-hand was real. https://forums.collectors.com/discu...-mils-of-pure-gold-to-the-candy-tungsten-core But the rest in boxes were not, so my Q stands: how did APMEX (who should have both XRF and PMV tools) let my +18k sovereign pass? And what should I do with it now that I know it's not 22k? Do you consider a sovereign that ISN'T 22k to be a "counterfeit"? Another collector was adamant that any sovereign not minted in Britain = counterfeit even at 22k gold (because of mint of origin), but at least the coins are legitimate 22k to coin and bullion collectors alike whereas mine may be minted in London but it's only +18k...

I do admit: I could have posted in the wrong forum. I did do a few searches on fake coins but did not see/find a forum dedicated to spotting fakes...

Also: scratch-testing is "off-topic". Now that my sovereign is an established +18k, what should I DO with it?? Return it as a counterfeit? Does anyone have any HISTORICAL context?? Scientific context?? As to how this sovereign ended up being +18k instead of 22k??? Looking for expertise, not more people comforting themselves with eye-balling gold and putting down actual science. Please read the links from other coin lovers who did the maths.........

 

Thank you @desertgem for staying on-topic!! I'll call the local coin dealers to see if they have an ultrasonic machine that they'd be willing to use on my sovereign.....

And I'm upset that people are poo-poo-ing scratch testing without knowing the science behind XRF or other scientific methods of proving %. It is for all of our benefits that our karats be established. Word's worth in gold, and all.....

 

I indulge in the jewelry area a little, and I would never use the acid methods, just as I would not use the scratch test on gemstones. The value drops, such that it is counterproductive. Gold nuggets I might use acid as I could polish the layer off. Jim

 

Scratch testing is evil as far as collectible, beyond just bullion value, coins are concerned. If that is your standard test then I hope to never buy anything from you.

 

@Numismat Scratch testing is only evil if the coin is PERFECT. If it is not (i.e. circulated in ANY condition) then it will NOT drop the value @desertgem because how will you know otherwise? At the word of a professional? Who will never encounter a fake and never let a fake pass through? Fake coins have existed longer than any of you have been alive, since coins were minted. Since I will use SCIENCE to test everything I buy, I have no problems buying from a pro or from Ebay. Anyone else think their word is as good as gold? Anyone else think the gold they have is infallible? No one wants to admit that their dealer may have been had by professional cons, but no one has yet to mention how they can prove their stuff is legit. Anyone actually READ the XRF link? Or own a PMV themselves??

 

Anyone read the link I posted about how numismatists are so upset about fakes flooding the market?? Guess not... just keep HOPING that the gold in your pocket is real..........

 

And again: does anyone have anything to CONTRIBUTE to the conversation? About what to DO with a coin that's not 22k??? I guess I literally am the FIRST to find a fake coin amongst all the collectors in this forum.........

 

Furthermore, by the logic of the scratch-haters I should have just TRUSTED APMEX because they're "professionals" with "equipment". If I had done that, then I would be sitting on an +18k sovereign that's NOT 22k, but I would still THINK it's 22k because "a professional LOOKED at it." Does that sound like it could have happened to any of you??? Or y'all to smug to admit the possibility???

 

No, they are common, very seldom about one from a large bullion supplier though. Most who find a fake has obtained it from eBay or other type of auction, or in inherited/bought coins, and have to accept it, or obtain restitution through outside means. The next step is yours: return it , or keep it. We can only go on your information and there is not much one can say. Since the forum is anonymous, people can only evaluate what is presented, whether all said is true or if there is missing parts to the story. You purchased the coin, you can negotiate return, sell it appropriately, or keep it.

24k gold has a specific gravity of 19.32, 22k 18.67, 18k 15.58....so have a chemist do a specific gravity test, which will tell.
Jim

 

@desertgem Thank you again!! I will; I was looking for a geologist in the Geology department yesterday while on campus. But everyone already went home... that's 2 tests I can use to double-double check the sovereign.....

 

This isn't true at all.

 

I second this. Scratch testing is bad for any coin.

 

@Numismat @USCoinCollector42 Sorry, but you're wrong: a coin is ONLY worth melt + emotional value. Period. There's no fixed price on "owning a piece of history." (Mine is melt + 1 USD/year before present. Period. Just because it's shiny and uncirculated doesn't mean much to me. That's like buying a brand new car above MSRP and never driving it hoping it's a 1 out of 10 Ferrari in value. And in the case of coins, it mostly never is a 1 out of 10 as most were minted in the millions...) And since none of us know the %/karat unless we were there watching it poured and minted, no one genuinely knows with CERTAINTY that what they have in hand is as stated. The most apt example is shipwrecked silver and gold. We pay more than spot for a piece that's been cleaned off the ocean floor, because cleaning it "adds to the history" or whatever. Having a lump of calcified silver just doesn't do it for most people, coin or bullion collectors alike. Another example is a tarnished silver coin; the tarnish shows its history. Therefore, having a coin scratch tested ADDS to the history of the coin without DIMINISHING its actual content by any MEANINGFUL measure. It's only IN YOUR HEAD that the coin is "damaged." In ACTUALITY, any CIRCULATED coin is already "damaged," and like I said earlier I'll bet my 8 escudo that none of you can tell where a coin has been scratch-tested unless it's MINT and obviously flawless before testing. You think coin-people are the only pros that know how to handle metals and minerals? And not only that, whether you agree or disagree doesn't so much matter when numismatics are so concerned about fakes they're writing the US Mint about it. But if you read my links you would've known other coin lovers don't share your sentiment. KNOWING is ALWAYS better than GUESSING when it comes to metals and minerals.

To put it another way: you are all saying a house is worth the asking price even without having all the requisite inspections. To quote Batman, "Criminals thrive on society's 'understanding'." That kind of attitude is how lemon laws get passed and houses with broken sewer pipes get sold. And to hit closer to home, that's how professional criminals are able to mass-produce fakes and introduce them to the system: because it's profitable because people whose livelihoods depend on passing good goods pass bad goods sometimes, knowingly or unknowingly.

When @desertgem can find a link to (IMHO not-so-good, the sword lacking detail is too obvious) fakes in less than __ time, then how much time will it take to find fakes that are so good they fool XRF hand-helds?

If you want to own a piece of history without knowing with scientific certainty that it is what it is, well in all honesty that's life in a nutshell. But some things CAN be known with certainty, and IMHO it's foolish to NOT know when you CAN know...

And again, this is the wrong thread for people to be voicing their opinions of scratch-testing since I'm here looking for help regarding a piece that has been tested at less than 22k gold......

 

Hey admiral, this is a public forum and you will get nothing but opinions, that's how forums work. Scratch testing is for the birds, especially on gold coins. Good luck with your situation!