How much hairlining is acceptable on MS coins?

K

 

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The fact that Doug hasn't owned any coins in the last decade or more should indicate that he may not be the most reliable of sources for modern coin grading. He can tell us all about how it was in the 1990s, but if you get out of the game you start to loose touch.

 

Explain to me how it works then. With all your experience in the corporate world, please explain how a publicly traded company can basically commit fraud by executing a wholesale change of their grading standards on a periodic basis, while managing to keep any proof of this from ever escaping to the public.

 

I would also like an explanation About his complaining grades are to low when he was trying to sell the coin for a profit with all this lossening he claims happens

 

I was agreeing with you

 

K

 

Explain how you advertise yourself as knowing the intricacies of modern coin grading, make a comment on a coin’s grade, and backpedal as fast as you can when your precious PCGS disagrees with you.

And I am sure this fits into your narative as well

https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=300978

 

You are out of the game of buying and selling coins, is what I meant. Obviously I know you're still heavily involved here. But if you don't have that first-hand experience of buying and selling, that is significantly different than being a prominent member of a coin website. Things have changed quite a bit in the last few decades.

What I see from your posts are a lot of long posts describing how things were, or how you think things should be. But that is often different from how things are.

 

So because I point out to you that no one wanted to buy that coin from you raw as a teenage dealer I am back peddling on a bust quarter? Ed wood much?

You are self admitted completely out of the market yet comment on it a lot with a lot of outdated information

 

Typecoin- what is your problem. There's a lot of garbage I don't especially approve of in the hobby, but I don't make it my goal to harp about this problem night and day. This is a major point of contention with you. One discussion? Sure, but I feel like every question you post turns into some form of an argument about....... The same damned thing. You're cool but you need to stop before you alienate everybody. Everybody knows I personally hate PCGS, however, everybody knows they can't do anything wrong in the eyes of LeHigh. This is all opinion, LeHigh isn't a bad dude just because he fanboys over PCGS, not to mention he has years more experience than us both. And Jason nailed the discussion with his reply of there being no black and white answer. Yet here you are still bickering.

You make a post awhile back stating you're done pursuing U.S. Coins, but here you are, still in the U.S. Coin forum bickering back and forth.

 

Here’s your backpedaling:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/another-overgraded-pcgs-morgan.327312/page-6#post-3242902

As for the quarter, I made that thread to talk about how it was overgraded, which does not fit your narrative that I “only complain that my coins don’t grade as high as I want to make a profit.” I discuss their inconsistency with classic US coins. And apparently hairlines on UNC coins fall into that category as well.

 

Everyday I am more and more convinced his "questions" are nothing more than a set up to try and lecture people and force his opinion on them. I made the mistake of thinking he was asking a real question again and should have just stuck to ignoring him

Oh you mean your group troll thread. Like I said my bad for trying to help you at all, I won't make that mistake again. Continue on with the group trolling

 

I saw hairlines on an MS-63+ coin, so I wanted to learn where to learn where lines are drawn in regard to grading UNC coins with hairlines. I think you can understand my frustration when the answer is that it is completely arbitrary. And then a fanboy shows up and says that the standards are always changing, but then tries to argue that they are consistent. So which is it?

I have learned only one thing from this thread: gold coins are given leniency due to the softness of the metal. And that still does not answer my question.

Logic debates are fun, especially when the opponents’ arguments are built on fallacies and incomplete evidence. But you are right; I have no desire to collect US coins anymore.

 

I honestly think he's trying to add to the discussion, but all he really does is aggarvate. Like ok. We disagree with the PCGS fanboys. But can we all agree we are into this hobby because of a common passion for Numismatics? There's no sense making enemies over something so petty.

 

Read Jason's first reply, then read the replies from @Insider. Two of the forum's most knowledgeable people.

There's your answer.

 

@Insider

Longing for that long-lost anonymity yet?

 

You created this thread to again start a war between members. You should be proud.

 

It seems like there is a group of very-vocal members that just really likes to argue. We pretty much know what each other's position is, and we really should know that we're never going to convince the other. TypeCoin, BaseBall, Kurt, Doug, Lehigh, and me.... we should probably get locked in a room with a case of strong drink, and not get let out until.... no, we probably just shouldn't get let out. haha

 

BooksB4Coins, asked: "@Insider, longing for that long-lost anonymity yet?"

Actually, I really did enjoy being an unknown so I could be my normal nasty and abrasive self when dealing with misinformation. My only regret about joining a form at all is the time commitment. I'm behind in my regular columns. Nevertheless, I've learned a lot and get ideas for columns. Obviously, it is embarrassing when I make the mistakes.



I agree w/Lehigh96. "The idea that the TPGs change their standards for numerical grading to drive resubmissions is total lunacy."

I don't agree with this: "Gradeflation is the natural result of the subjectivity of grading combined with a financial incentive to upgrade,..."

Gradeflation occurred as standards were loosened. It also allowed coins to be graded higher to reflect their increasing value over time.

"physics-fan3.14, posted: "You are out of the game of buying and selling coins, is what I meant. Obviously, I know you're still heavily involved here. But if you don't have that first-hand experience of buying and selling, that is significantly different than being a prominent member of a coin website. Things have changed quite a bit in the last few decades."

Without the experience of being in the trenches day-to-day with your finger on the pulse of the market, it is difficult to be a commercial grader or to know what the "spread" is on an individual coin. Many coins are graded higher AND lower than their actual condition depending on what they are. However, grading a coin as a collector/dealer is a personal and subjective pursuit. Anyone, with Doug's experience, can grade a coin without buying or selling them. The closer that person comes to the norm of the present time the better grader they will appear to be to more people. Professional TPGS employees are a fairly good example. They don't sell coins but in many cases, they are allowed to buy coins.

TypeCoin971793, posted: "I saw hairlines on an MS-63+ coin, so I wanted to learn where to learn where lines are drawn in regard to grading UNC coins with hairlines. I think you can understand my frustration when the answer is that it is completely arbitrary. And then a fanboy shows up and says that the standards are always changing, but then tries to argue that they are consistent. So which is it?"

If you wish to learn the "line." You'll need to look at graded coins by the major grading services. MS coins can have hairlines from improper cleaning or mishandling and still be straight graded. Read the ANA Grading guide chart with the silver dollars to get a start. Then you'll need to learn the difference between these lines on coins. When does a hairline become a tiny scratch? When does a tiny scratch become a scratch or a gouge? It is all a matter of degree. The problem is as of yet there is no standard. Be patient, I'm working on it.

"I have learned only one thing from this thread: gold coins are given leniency due to the softness of the metal. And that still does not answer my question."

This is a big step!