1877 Indian Head Penny? Also, 1909S?

As of today, the only local offer my father has for the entire set is from a dealer who offered to pay him $7,000 for the whole set, but I think he's vastly underestimated conditions, and he factors in a huge markup. A couple of other local collectors who looked at them said the 1877 alone is at least AU, and worth much more than $1,000, which is what the dealer offered to pay for it alone. He offered about 800 to $900 for the 1909 S. The others who saw them in person said it all should be worth 2 to 3 times $7K going by the conditions, which they seemed very impressed with, (to say the least!). So after that, there was no way I was going to let him sell it for $7K. As of right now, somebody from Etsy is already offering to pay 12 to $14,000 for the whole set, an offer we just got a couple of hours ago. That's about double what the dealer offered, already.
The conditions are VERY good, and none appear to have been cleaned (and definitely weren't during all of the decades my father had them), they have been untouched and stored in the museum quality Intercept Shield.
I need to try to get better and larger individual pictures of all of them, without the plastic film in front of them, and in better lighting, I suppose.

 

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If the 1877 and the 1909s are that nice, what does the rest of the set look like?

 

A lot are at least MS-63 going by other collectors who have looked at it in person. I have to try to get better pictures of all of the coins separately, I suppose. I'm also thinking of trying to do a video of them in varying light and such.

 

Yes they take a percentage similar to eBay, not exactly sure how much but I think slightly less. But it gives you the ability to accept almost all forms of payment in existence, with security for both seller and buyer, as well as the ability to offer your items to a worldwide audience with a great Google ranking, even. But yes, they would definitely get quite a deal of a profit from a higher priced item like this. (Still less than eBay would though, I think).

 

Based solely upon what you've thus far presented here, you would be VERY wise to proceed with extreme caution. I'm sorry, but this just isn't adding up.

You're not the first nor last to be in this situation, and it isn't uncommon for folks like you to end up getting screwed simply by trying to eek out every possible cent when selling. There are people out there well aware of folks like you and know how to play off your desires. I've met far too many who decided to chase rainbows instead of taking guaranteed cash and ended up much worse off in the end for it, including a few who ended up with nothing.

I certainly understand that taking less from a dealer doesn't sound that great, but cash is king and selling on your own can cause significant headaches even when things go well. You're an admitted novice wading into an area infested with sharks.

Your father wanting the set to stay together is largely fantasy. Sure, there's always a possibility you'll find someone genuinely willing to, but more likely it would be broken up minutes after the deal is done. You have to decide what's more important: an emotional attachment or the money.

 

What can happen bad if we accept the offer for 14K? As I understand, Etsy has good seller and buyer protection, and we wouldn't ship until the payment cleared. I suppose someone can try to reverse charges or it could be a stolen credit card, but I was still under the impression we were protected by such things by selling through a large marketplace like Etsy or eBay.
I tried to talk him in to selling parts of the set, then he would be more likely to find local buyers, but he still isn't going for it. I told him he could get more for it if it was in front of a worldwide audience of collectors online, directly, who would not factor in large markups, or "undergrade" things to increase that markup. I knew the offer of 7K for the set was absurd after what others have said here, and even other local collectors who saw the set in person said it should be worth at least double 7K. Everyone who has seen it so far pretty much has their jaw dropped, saying they have not ever seen a set in this good of a condition. We really don't know how else to show it around to find a buyer any more effectively, except personally taking it around to multiple coin shops, which we don't really have the time required to do right now. I thought putting it online was the fastest and simplest way to get it out in front of everyone at once. Taking a personal check from a local buyer is risky as well, which is what he would be doing otherwise. I also figured it was safer with the protection offered by a large marketplace, along with the ability to take credit cards and such. The only other offer we had was from a dealer who offered way too little, we don't care about eeking every dollar but everyone who sees it agrees 7K was absurd.

 

I know nothing at all about seller protection on Etsy, but I'm pretty sure eBay's protection has a cap well below that level.

If I were in your shoes, with a valuable collection of something I didn't specialize in, I'd be happy to accept a smaller profit in exchange for more security. I've sold well into five figures worth of stuff on eBay over the years, and I'd be extremely reluctant to try to move this collection there. A dishonest buyer has many ways to hang you out to dry, and a buyer who knows he won't pay up will be able to outbid the honest bidders.

 

Unless this has been discussed in greater detail elsewhere, I don't see a single example of anyone remotely suggesting the set worth anywhere near what you seem to believe. In fact you've been repeatedly told $9k for the 77 isn't realistic, and nothing yet has been presented that even remotely suggests the remainders worth what would be needed to reach the value you suggest. Perhaps they are but you need to make that case by providing evidence. I don't know what others are telling you, but from the outside looking in and based off my own experiences, I'm just not seeing anything remotely absurd about the claimed dealer offer. Of course actually being able to see the coins may (MAY) change this, but not for one second do I believe there's a serious buyer out there willing to fork over $14k for it as-is. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but only that it seems much more likely you're being trolled or worse. The idea it's somehow worth "at least double" the $7k also strikes me as likely being infinitely more absurd than the dealer offer, but again sufficient evidence has yet to be presented in order to make such a determination.

I just looked up the set on etsy and see that you have a single collage-type photo that again in absolutely no way provides sufficient information for one to make much of a determination as to true condition or value, especially one backed by real money. Would you hand someone $14k based upon what you've provided as well as the description of an obvious novice? Your own words give a grade range all the way from VF to MS63! It just doesn't make sense.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but am hoping to get you to think this through. There's an old saying that really fits well when it comes to coins: if it looks like BS, smells like BS, and just happens to be a few feet behind a bull, it's probably BS.

 

I think people are confused by the way Etsy shows photos. there actually are about 10 close up photos there of various pieces, the collage is just the main photo. You can tab to various photos, and then on top of that, there is a zoom function where it will blow it up to very large sizes. Regardless, all of the pictures that are posted there were taken through the plastic sleeves the coins are stored in, and I am now in the process of completing closeup photos of all of the coins without the sleeves in front. I also posted about this at coin community, so maybe I'm mixing some replies up, but a couple have mentioned that the 1877 should be around 3 k, and that if the coins were all in similar condition, which they are, we were looking at 14k for the set if not more. and sure enough, we do have a pending offer for 14k , but he wants some more close up pictures to decide for sure. I really see no point of anyone offering 14k for the set just to troll us. (?) Anything is possible, I guess. But the local dealer offered us just under $1,000 for just the 1877, and people on the forums and other collectors in person are saying that the 1877 alone would be worth two or three times that. so it's not a far fetched idea to assume the set would be worth at least double 7K. Would it? the whole reason I started this is because a couple collectors who saw the set told us that 7K was ridiculous for what the set was, and my own research into comparisons of other coins seems to back that up, as well as what others were saying on these forums. it was clear that the dealer was intentionally under grading, and working in a huge markup.
just to summarize some advice we have been getting, on the other forum people are saying we should submit the set to some kind of auction house called Great Collections.
another reply we got over at the other forum:

If the other coins in the set are as nice as these the whole set is way underpriced at 12 to 14k$. Do not short change your Dad by selling it on the cheap. Take your time and get a few more opinions before you sell it. Once it's sold its gone
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a lot of the coins are much better than the 1877, actually. If that alone is worth around 3K, and we're being offered just under 1K, it makes sense that the dealer is under valuing the whole set, doesn't it? Everyone else who sees it, including my own research seems to support that.
as an aside, I just wanted to thank everyone who is taking time to give opinions and advice on this, as you can tell, I'm still amateur in all of this, and it's a great learning experience.. it gives us way more to ponder than I ever imagined about this!

 

If someone on "ETSY" is looking to over pay, they are trying to cheat you somehow. They'll take out the good coins, put in fakes, say you sold them fakes, get their money back and return the coins to you with all the valuable ones gone. Or a host of other scams.
Any time money is involved they are trying to trap you with greed.
There's no point in selling this set for double what it is worth. You will only regret it. It's worth plenty as it is. Always deal with reputable, honest dealers.
There are plenty of sharks in the coin business as well. Perhaps an auction house with a good reputation.

 

I did think about the swap and return scam, which would be a huge headache to have to deal with, especially if a stolen credit card was used or whatever. Unless I made it clear we don't accept returns, or have all of the valuable coins slabbed, which we don't have the resources to do right now. Has anyone heard of this Great Collections place? I have no idea how to go about that.
I still want to finish photographing the entire set close up, and then everyone can let me know what the least is that we should accept for it, regardless of how it's sold. Then we can go from there, I guess. We don't want to sell it for double what it's worth, just what it's worth, which the majority says is well over 7K. A couple thousand is a lot of money right now to give up, if it's worth way more, when he needs every penny. We don't want to let it go where a dealer is going to make more profit on it then we even sold it to him for.

 

I have bought from Great Collections and have a couple of emails directly from the owner when I had questions. They do their own imaging for their online listings.

I have written instructions for my wife in case anything happens to me. I tell her to send everything to GC. Go to their web site and see if you can find comparable coins to yours to get yourself on a more solid footing.

 

Hi all!

I didn't realize how long it's been! I wanted to update everyone on everything happening with the Indian Head set..
Yes, I did get more pictures, but in the process I started talking to edited, who said this was something they would definitely be interested in, and we have been in contact ever since. We finally got it together to ship to him insured Registered Mail..
He said he was really impressed with the set, and he then called my dad and they talked about it a bit, and discussed the history of the set and so forth..
So.. everything was sent to NGC for grading. edited said he thought the 1877 could have been cleaned long ago,but couldn't tell for sure. The NGC grades just came back.. and most graded higher than we even expected! However, a lot specified a cleaned designation, which we didn't expect. Only one said "Harshly", (the 1867/67 - FS-301).
The 1877 was graded AU Details, "cleaned".
The question is, how much will that reduce the value?
Everyone was correct about the AU grade, though, it seems.
The 1909-S which you all thought was around MS-63, came back as "UNC" details, with OBV scratched. It's a bit confusing.. Is UNC Uncirculated better than MS-63? And if so, how much? I see different scales depending where you look. (And no one who has looked at it, even the professional dealer in person, noticed any scratch!). So what would the value be estimated to be going by this? Even though almost all of the coins came back with even higher letter grades than anyone expected, what effect will these "details" designations (mostly supposed "cleaning", and a couple environmental, and the "obv scratched" on the 1909-S), have on overall value?
Again, sorry for the long delay in updating on everything, please let me know what all of you think about everything.
Thanks..

 

Thanks for the follow up! We would love to see more photos if you have them. Unfortunately, details grades bring less than straight grades, or problem free coins. UNC is anything from MS60-70, but the details grade means there’s a problem with the coin.

 

Hi again,
New Update..
Well, the entire Indian Head set is now up edited, so those are probably the best photos of each coin that is possible to get, since they professionally imaged each one, both sides.
I have to say that the controversy on NGC's "details/cleaning" grades has intensified greatly.
To recap: the local dealer who examined the set and put his own unofficial grades on them all, (he has been an expert coin dealer and collector for decades), is at odds with NGC over a lot of their claims of cleaning on a lot of the coins that NGC claims were cleaned. He was going to give us $8K for the set, factoring a 20% markup, and sell for over 10K. According to so many, the set was supposedly worth up to double that. Then, we got the $14K offer from someone edited. but everyone on these forums unanimously told us that we should edited. OK, all seemed great, and NCG came back with grades on most of them, HIGHER than the local dealer estimated. (We did think he was undergrading them). So even better, right? Until edited gave us an estimated final sale of.. less than 5K? Wha?
Not kidding. How can this be, if the grades were higher than the dealer who was valuing them at 10K plus, and was ready to give us 8K cash on the spot? Apparently it's all because of the supposed "cleaning" that NGC slapped on them. However.. each coin is now professionally imaged in high res, and I guess our only hope is that people LOOK at the images and not just take NGC's word for it.
Everyone who looked at the pictures I posted before estimated a total value for the set at or over 14K..
Everyone can now see each coin perfectly imaged by edited.. what does everyone think? Do all of these seemed "cleaned" to you? The lowest offer we had before was 8K from the local dealer who graded them lower than NGC ultimately did.. so how did we get to an estimated 5K, when even a professional dealer knows he can sell for over 10K? And now even more, since, as I've said, the grades turned out to be better than his! If this plays out, lots of people sure are going to get deals, and make tons of money off our set, but it won't be us. It's almost like they just slapped cleaned on them automatically when some are clearly not. They messed up on two overdates also, not even noting the overdates, and edited had to send them back to get "fixed". Wow. But what can we do now? Just hope people actually look at the images and go by their own judgements, I guess?
As for the links to the listings, I'm not sure how to post the group, as they are all listed individually.. edited
The 1877 is here:
edited
The 1909-S is here: (They claim a scratch.. I don't remember that ever being mentioned by the dealer who examined them, nor do I notice in the images?)
edited


What do you guys think going by the new photos? Same opinions? Worse? Better?
All input will be greatly appreciated..
Thanks..

 

I’m afraid I had to report this post, because you’re now sending us links of coins you have for sale on edited, which is advertising and belongs in the B/S/T forum and not here.

 

For the record, with these high res photos, the scratch on the 1909-S is most likely at the date, after the first 9. The 1877 color is off and I am not surprised it said it was cleaned, the 1887 clearly shows environmental damage. I can understand you feeling disappointed and frustrated. It’s very hard to keep such old coins in pristine condition. I might have considered doing NGC conservation on some of them.

 

I didn't know I wasn't supposed to post links.. but it is relevent to the discussion.. I can just edit it, but how do I direct to the images? I can't download and re-upload 52 images.. can I just link directly to the images?

 

I’m afraid that since they’re now all for sale, you can’t share any photos (outside of the buy/sale/trade forum), as it’s considered advertising for your coins. Edit: Once the auction is completed, you can share all the links and photos you’d like. Though my personal recommendation is to forget you owned them after they sell. It’s easier that way.