Gassing coins -AT

Tap the edge on those and you can usually get it to start turning it, until it rotates sideways and upside again ect.

 

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Have to give that a try. I own a few PCGS of that era.

Looks like his technique is gas it, tap it, gas it some more, tap it again, rinse and repeat.

Here's the problem, "base", for you and Lehigh, and your toner fascination - you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

 

If you get fleas, gas them some more......

 

Actually Jim, you have now brought us full turn back to "dipping".

 

We've all heard of "mint to demand". My thesis is we're up to our eyebrows in "tone to demand" nationally. And that fact infects the reputation of the relatively few honest specialists, hopefully like my fellow members here.

It's an occupational hazard, one that honest bullion dealers have to deal with daily through the counterfeit problem. The bullion segment has wised up and declared war on the fakers, as well as the fakes.

The toner guys need to as well, and stop bashing those of us who are pointing out the problem.

 

You haven't come close to proving your thesis. You have found a few unscrupulous people who are gassing old graded widgets and create horrible AT monsters. These coins really shouldn't fool any toned coin enthusiast.

I find it hysterical that you think we are bashing you. From my point of view, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill, and we are keeping you honest. When you say "we are up to our eyebrows in the toned to demand nationally" you are using hyperbole to instill fear and paranoia in novice collectors in order to ensure that they avoid toned coins entirely. That my friend, is bashing.

 

That one is just ugly.

Gentle tapping usually does the trick

 

Gas chamber, lethal injection, electrocution—they do everything to these poor little things these days but hang them.

 

That goes for anything in collectables that drives premiums though. Something as simple as eye appeal has people out there trying to figure out how to doctor it to improve prices which by definition for liking nice looking coins would be laying with the dogs.

The only way to avoid fleas when in collectables is to not deal/purchase/collect them in any way shape or form.

 

Beyond ugly. Rainbow?? More like an explosion at the spray tanning salon.

 

Let me take a shot at explaining my problem with toners this way. Work with me a little. We have on here a ROCK SOLID contingent who think Moonlight Mint’s fantasy date restrikes are abominations, NOT FULLY for what they are NOW, but for what they may cause someday in the future in the hands of the unwary. I’m not unsympathetic to that argument. I have taken extraordinary means to take that eventuality seriously and to attempt to prevent it.

Here’s my point:

Don’t we owe a similar debt of special care to future unwary collectors of AT’d crap? Just as in Dan’s pieces, those newbs of the future are potential victims. Either both are important or both are garbage arguments, as I see it. Either “educate yourself” works in both cases or neither.

 

The protection now and in the future is the same, the TPG's. So while this particular clown has found a way to gas these coins that were already graded, the toning that he has created is clearly AT, and bad AT at that. If these coins were submitted raw to the TPGs for grading, they would be instantly rejected for Artificial Toning.

As for these current coins, members on the CU forum have reported the issue and are working with reps of PCGS to have the certification numbers of these coins decertified. That said, at some point, caveat emptor needs to apply.

 

Two thoughts - 1) gassing is not difficult and will probably proliferate, and 2) caveat emptor, while it still resonates with me, seems to be on the societal decline. Seems everyone lately wants a nanny.

 

It's the warm fuzzies that eBay buyer protection and PayPal chargebacks give everyone. The buyer no longer believes he/she has to beware. And in doing this they fail to educate themselves.

 

I get all of mine graded for that very reason.

Sort of. The difference with toning is that there are certain areas where I am convinced people don't care how it happened as long as they like the final look like art. There is definitely a market change occuring and certain areas seem to be dominated by enthusiasts other than the old guard and I don't see that as an issue. Tastes are going to change as will the market and generally it does regulate itself pretty well.

Many of the terrible tone jobs sell for prices reflecting that. More happens behind the scenes always as well and the overwhelming majority of gassing ect is a joke. Even the overwhelming majority of the best of the best is meh.

But one thing we need to remember is that just because people like different things does not mean they are unaware. The internet buyers of today overall are MUCH more educated than the past and than forums give them credit. There almost certainly is some aspect happening in this market of people disagreeing but them not caring knowing full well what they do.

A lot of things shouldn't happen in all aspects of life but they do. It doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water

This is one place we differ just because a newb will always be vulnerable in any area no matter what. That isn't exclusive to collectables, or sports, or retail, acedemia, court ect, anytime there is someone brand spanking new there will be someone somewhere trying to exploit it.

I do think one of the positives of the new guard will result in some sort of process for this or changes in how they deal with these clear situations. They were proactive in the thread that showed one even before someone mentioned hopefully they do something.

 

It is difficult to gas a coin and have the toning look original, and it always will be. Collectors need to be aware that people will mess with slabbed coins and even counterfeit slabbed coins to make a quick buck. Simply relying on TPGs for everything is not a reasonable solution. At some point, the buyer bears the responsibility. If you don't know how to identify an easily identifiable AT coin housed in a real TPG slab, then you shouldn't be buying toned coins in the first place, and you certainly shouldn't be paying premiums. The world is a dangerous place.

 

If it were so easy, then why isn't everyone doing it? You can't generate the proper pattern and color scheme while the coin is still in the slab, because the holder inhibits the necessary air flow. All you get is the CRAP that this clown produced.

 

(The below quote and other posts - I'm not going to quote them all here.)

The more people there are, the more dumb people there are. The percentage of dumb people online is not fundamentally higher than you would see at an event, it's just that the internet makes a high volume of people accessible to you very quickly, so it can appear that way.

There are many people out there having an overwhelmingly positive experience in numismatics on the internet. As with the use of any tool, the quality of your experience is based on your knowledge and skill.

The difference between numismatic interactions at events and on the internet is in how well you control and limit those interactions to people that have quality information and coins. You are very good at this in person. By your own admission, you have learned what shows and auctions to attend, where to go while at an event, and whom to speak with. I'm sure that's a skill that took decades to hone. Likewise, learning how to have an equivalent experience with numismatics on the internet takes a lot of time.

On top of that, those that cling to an outdated and unyielding concept of privacy like yourself are going to have a really poor user experience on the internet. The expectation of privacy itself is a relatively modern and evolving concept. For the vast majority of human existence, an expectation of privacy did not exist in the form we have today, even pre-internet. That you are clinging to a 30 year old snapshot of what privacy used to be seems a rather odd thing to be proud of.

My mother has extremely poor experiences using email, and chalks them up to a vast conspiracy from "the Google" and other big companies trying to steal her information. The truth is, she's just not good at using email and doesn't have a modern understanding of privacy. And as you brought age into the discussion, her having 30 years on me is irrelevant. In this case, I had about a 20 year head start on her in learning the technology, and it was when I was young and it was easier to learn. The reason I have a positive experience with it and she does not is entirely due to the difference in skill.