I don't get it (old gold coins vs. gold bullion)?

Ya know, trying to explain something to YOU is about like pounding that sand you mentioned. And the point you are missing is that I qualified my comments by saying trusted and respected dealers.

In other words, you can't just pick any old dealer, you have to be selective in your choices of dealers to do business with - and you only do business with that select group of dealers ! Do that and you won't have any problems should you ever need to return a coin for any reason. They won't argue with you, they'll just allow you to return the coin.

As I said above there's a lot more honest out there than you seem to think ! Are there are lot of bad ones too ? Absolutely ! But if you don't do business with them they can't hurt you.

 

Collectors come in all shapes and sizes . . . some are smarter than I think and some are not. Heck, as a younger collector I was pretty darned stupid when I thought I was smart. Even a surprising number of long-time dealers may have a fake coin or two in their cases which they truly believe are genuine.

Fair enough.

Just remember that most of the dealers who regularly trade in gold coins have probably bought and sold more than you have even looked at. I'd venture that while it isn't the only smart way, it is the only smart way if the coin is raw and the dealer isn't.

 

Yeah some are, and a lot no doubt think they are - but the majority aren't.

What do you consider proof ? Me, I consider it to be what more than dealers than I can count have personally told me over the years. Namely that over the course of their careers they had purchased several coins that they believed to be genuine - but turned out to be fakes.

Sure, there's some collectors that know more than some dealers, especially about a series the collector specializes in. And I'll readily admit that some dealers are dumber than a box of rocks. But there's also a whole of dealers that know more than the average collector.

So strong statement ? I'd say that in the general sense, it's as true as the sun coming up in the morning.

 

I still keep at least a dozen reminders of how deceptive good counterfeits can be, and could probably find records of another few dozen fakes I was able to return over the years. Not all, mind you, but certainly some of those coins came from dealers we all regard as trustworthy. Several of those dealers have since passed on. Even today, some very good dealers will be completely surprised by the return of a coin from one of the grading services as being counterfeit, or of questionable authenticity.

For you not to have seen fake gold coins at any of your local dealers does nothing to convince me that they are not there. After all, it was only 7 years ago when you did not even know what the Red Book was. I cannot expect you to know a fake, and am quite certain you've not examined nearly as many gold coins as I've bought over the years . . . And I'm not a major dealer.

By the way, I did not say that any dealer knows more than a long time enthusiast. I qualified my statement more carefully, writing specifically of dealers who regularly trade in gold coins. The bigger dealers typically buy and sell thousands of gold coins per year, and have done so for decades.

 

Actually, most counterfeit gold coins are of smaller denominations because, unlike larger gold coins, they sell at a much higher premium to their gold content. Counterfeiters would have a hard time making deceptive fakes of large coins because they'd need to find a way of substituting another material or the gold. With smaller coins, they can make them with the correct gold content and still make a lot of money because of that high premium.

As for possessing the machinery necessary to strike counterfeits, it is available, and at pretty reasonable cost if making a lot of fakes. More importantly, counterfeiters may simply "borrow" the equipment of another business during off hours (think 2nd or 3rd shift, or weekends) if they work in the right type of industry.

I'd say it is quite rare for counterfeits made today to be made of less gold than the real thing, and that's almost certainly why you're unaware of their prevalence, as are most pawn, jewelry and, yes, even coin dealers who trust in correct weight / gold content to authenticate them.

 

Interestingly, 90% silver goes as you describe, but the gold market does not. I don't know where you get your data, but the premiums for large silver coins are much higher than for smaller silver coins, while premiums for larger gold coins are much lower than for smaller gold coins.

 

And while you're at it @Doc J, please also note how few of the top 50 are large gold coins and how many are small gold coins. That aligns with what I wrote to you above about counterfeiters liking smaller gold coinage better because they could make more money off of the high premiums.

 

The political comments from anybody stop here and now !