I don't get it (old gold coins vs. gold bullion)?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Doc J, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. jwitten

    jwitten Well-Known Member

    I would choose the old gold any day of the week.
     
    MikeinWyo, Seattlite86 and Rheingold like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    I'll take the gold coins any day over bullion. They are dated, filled with history and have wonderful designs. You just can't beat that at today's prices.
     
  4. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    Imagine playing 5 card poker in a saloon with some Morgan Dollars and a few Seated Libs and some gold Bust Half Eagles and Eagles and Double Eagles and a fistful of Silver Certificates and, and, and :woot:
     
  5. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    Heh, no - it wasn't. I was interstate yesterday. Hard to post images of your coins while traveling.

    Anywho, here they are. The Sovereign and 10 Guilders were bought from Bullion traders, while the Francs and Kronen were bought from coin dealers. The ones bought from coin dealers were essentially bullion + $15.

    1912 King George V, Sovereign

    upload_2018-10-18_7-31-22.png

    1911 Wilhelmina, 10 Guilders:

    upload_2018-10-18_7-32-50.png

    1857 Napoleon III, 10 Francs:

    upload_2018-10-18_7-33-19.png

    1912 Franz Joseph, 10 Kronen

    upload_2018-10-18_7-36-50.png
     
    Nathan401, green18, longshot and 3 others like this.
  6. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    On top of this, shop around and find undergraded examples of Saints.
     
    Seattlite86 likes this.
  7. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    Sweet!!
     
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Every time a thread like this comes up I feel like it's wise that I mention this. Or at least I try to remember to do so.

    While common date/mint US and world gold has pretty much always traded at spot plus a small percentage, one has to always to remember that there are just a mountain of fakes out there. And not just ordinary fakes, very good fakes. They'll be the right size, the right weight, the right fineness, and good enough to sometimes even fool the home mint into thinking they are genuine. But they are fakes all the same !

    Now if you are strictly a gold buyer, a bullion buyer, that won't or at least shouldn't matter to you. But if you are a coin buyer it will ! If you are gold buyer all you care about the amount of gold you are buying - and in that regard you still get your money's worth. But as a coin buyer the driving force, the thing you care about about, is having a genuine example of the coin you desire - not some fake.

    If you have any doubts about what I'm telling you here you need to remember a couple of things. Years ago, not only were there actual government mints counterfeiting the gold coins of other countries, back in the 60's and 70's there were also huge factories, mints, set up and built in the middle east that minted counterfeit gold coins from virtually every country in the world. They minted these counterfeits by the millions upon millions.

    So how do you combat this problem ? I mean if some of the fakes are good enough to fool the actual home mints - and yes that actually has happened, and some of them are even good enough to fool the TPGs - how can you, a collector, ever hope to recognize a fake when ya see one ? Well that's the thing - you can't ! But what you can do is this - only buy from trusted sources. In other words only buy from trusted and respected dealers. That way, if you ever do buy a fake, only to find out later that it is a fake, at least you can still return it for another example or get your money back.

    But if you buy from individuals or on ebay or blah blah blah - you don't stand a chance. The best you can hope for is to sell it for its gold content, and while that may be what it is supposed to be, it also may not be.
     
  9. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Imagine how rich you would've been in that day to be able to gamble tens or hundreds of dollars on a poker hand.

    Now, imagine being that rich today, and going out and buying whatever classic gold your heart desires. ;)

    (Better yet, imagine if you'd been that rich in that day, and put it all into stocks and real estate. Of course, you'd still be dead now.)
     
    green18 likes this.
  10. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    A good point. I feel though that the risk is significantly reduced for collectors who purchase these sorts of coins, because gold counterfeit coins have a guaranteed bullion floor price.

    Now, my thinking is, if you do find out you've purchased a counterfeit, the impact is low. Worst comes to worst, you get bullion price for your counterfeit coin, and pay the small premium again to purchase a genuine gold coin. You don't have the bullion minimum floor price on other coins.

    I agree you should always buy from reputable sources. And, to be honest, why wouldn't you? There are small margins on gold coins treated like bullion, and plenty of reputable dealers out there.
     
    One Mans Trash likes this.
  11. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    I been aware that there are gold coin counterfeit pieces for a long time. Also know there are some pretty convincing fakes too. What I don’t understand is why the gold coin counterfeits are so much better than most of the silver coin fakes out there. Most of those aren’t very convincing at all.
     
  12. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Yes, but that risk tend to hold the coins down to close to that bullion floor price, so it adds a damper to the prices.
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Not always. While it is true that the better fakes have the correct weight and fineness - there's a whole lot of fakes that don't have it ! Their gold content may be significantly lower than it is for others. And they actually outnumber the better fakes.
     
  14. Doc J

    Doc J Mr. Brightside

    I'd say that you will more likely find counterfeit gold bars than old gold coins.

    Tungsten (wolframs or W) is often used with a gold plating. It has the same density as gold and is bought cheaply (~$2/ oz.). China is by far the largest producer of this metal. It is used as a fishing weight (or sinker) and as ammo bullets.

    It is hard to work with since the melting point is 6400 degrees F. A bar is produced and gold can be plated on it. I don't see it used to counterfeit a coin.

    I have never seen a counterfeit old gold coin and have looked at hundreds of coins. I only buy from people I trust and would never use eBay. It's also illegal to own one (ask The U.S. Secret Service--they were founded in 1865 to suppress counterfeit legal tender).

    BTW, YouTube has many good videos on testing for counterfeits.
     
  15. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Take another look at the relevant statutes. Previous discussions here seemed to establish that it's only illegal to fraudulently utter or sell one, not simply to hold one.

    A quick Google search will take you directly to an overseas supplier of "tungsten gold coins".
     
  16. Doc J

    Doc J Mr. Brightside

    It is not a statute on an internet social media site but a real Federal Law. I wouldn't hold a counterfeit coin. The owner knew it was a fraud which gets him in Federal Court to defend his right to hold a counterfeit U.S. currency.

    The Federal Prosecutor will look for more illegal stuff including a Federal subpoena for all tax records.

    Topic Number: 305 - Recordkeeping
    Well-organized records make it easier to prepare a tax return and help provide answers if your return is selected for examination or if you receive an IRS notice.

    You must keep records, such as receipts, canceled checks, and other documents that support an item of income, a deduction, or a credit appearing on a return as long as they may become material in the administration of any provision of the Internal Revenue Code, which generally will be until the period of limitations expires for that return.

    Period of limitations for assessment of tax:
    3 years - For assessment of tax you owe, this period is generally 3 years from the date you filed the return. Returns filed before the due date are treated as filed on the due date.

    No limit - There's no period of limitations to assess tax when you file a fraudulent return or when you don't file a return.
     
  17. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Did you know that every "real Federal Law" can, in fact, be looked up on the Internet?

    18 U.S. Code § 489 - Making or possessing likeness of coins

    See that part about "possesses with intent to sell, give away"?

    If you're aware of a statute that actually prescribes penalties for merely possessing a counterfeit coin, without fraudulent intent, please post it. There are a number of people here with "black books" of counterfeits for study, and I'm sure they'd like to be informed.
     
  18. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    How exactly does this work in your mind? So a fake that fooled everyone and some “trusted” source is not only going to admit they sold fakes months to years later but refund it admitting it’s even the same coin? A super star “trusted” source would have never sold a fake in the first place.

    People that have actually be in the market buying coins know how naive this belief is at best.

    TPG graded and places like eBay (as much as I dislike them) where you paid with PayPal through a credit card offer FAR more buyer protection.
     
  19. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    Some "super star" trusted sources, as you put it, have a lifetime guarantee. It's as simple as that.
     
  20. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Only in hypothetical world. Good luck proving they sold it years later. The real world is very different than what people wish it was.

    The only lifetime guarantee is coins in a TPG holder that hasn’t been cracked out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  21. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    try US code title 18 section 492

    "All counterfeits of any coins or obligations or other securities of the United States or of any foreign government, or any articles, devices, and other things made, possessed, or used in violation of this chapter or of sections 331–333, 335, 336, 642 or 1720, of this title, or any material or apparatus used or fitted or intended to be used, in the making of such counterfeits, articles, devices or things, found in the possession of any person without authority from the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer, shall be forfeited to the United States.

    Whoever, having the custody or control of any such counterfeits, material, apparatus, articles, devices, or other things, fails or refuses to surrender possession thereof upon request by any authorized agent of the Treasury Department, or other proper officer, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both."


    Basically all counterfeits are forfeit to the government and you can be fined or imprisoned if you don't turn them over WHEN THEY ASK FOR THEM. If they don't ask, you're OK.

    Oddly the way it is worded it sounds like you could get authority from to Secretart of the Treasury to possess them. And in the next part of the section it seem you can even potentially get forfeited counterfeits back,

    "Whenever, except as hereinafter in this section provided, any person interested in any article, device, or other thing, or material or apparatus seized under this section files with the Secretary of the Treasury, before the disposition thereof, a petition for the remission or mitigation of such forfeiture, the Secretary of the Treasury, if he finds that such forfeiture was incurred without willful negligence or without any intention on the part of the petitioner to violate the law, or finds the existence of such mitigating circumstances as to justify the remission or the mitigation of such forfeiture, may remit or mitigate the same upon such terms and conditions as he deems reasonable and just."
     
    Doc J likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page