These came in a lot of Byzantine Latin coins and weren't able to find a match in Malloy. Can someone who is more knowledge in these series help in finding the correct identification? Thanks, QG
The second one might be John II of Orsini from Epirus. You are welcome to compare to mine: Crusader Greece - Epirus John II Orsini, r. 1323-1335 (1325) Arta Mint, AE Denier, 18.53mm x 1 gram Obv.: +IOhS DESPOTVS, cross within inner circle Rev.: (+D)E ART(A C)ASTRV, around castle Ref.: Roberts 5338 First one might be the same, but I’m not sure I’m seeing the right letters. Maybe a variety not in Roberts? (The only book I have which covers these)
Thanks for the response! That is what I thought as well, but wasn't sure. There is an uncanny resemblance to your coin. I was comparing the specimens that was available on vcoins and Malloy. I am not familiar with Roberts. What is the title?
Silver Coins of Medieval France - he has a whole section on the Denier Tournois and covers the crusader issues. I imagine it’s not comprehensive since the focus is France, but I don’t know that for sure
I think this is the perfect topic for @seth77 as he is incredibly knowledgeable about denier tournois.
Hi, They are both variations of the denier tournois minted at Arta for Giovanni II Orsini around 1325. Judging by the appearance and the fact that they look copper not billon, it's likely that they are local imitations, which were made mostly in Thrace and Albania, but are known to have been found as far as Cyprus. There is no body of work regarding these imitations/counterfeits/local variations of the Greek tournois, apart from some singular articles, of which the most compelling is Late Deniers Tournois of Frankish Greece by A. J. Seltman. Unfortunately Malloy et al's Coins of the Crusader States barely mentions these offshoots of the Despotate of Epirus and seems to treat them as just counterfeits. They might be part of a regular coinage though, considering that all of them that I have seen share a lot of similar traits, from the fabric to the shape of the letters and overall appearance, post-dating 1325-1330. Here are some similar specs, possibly of the same issue:
Glad to be of help and always happy to see new deniers tournois. Whenever you post these, you add to the knowledge on an otherwise arid area of European numismatics.
No need towards me - it was dumb luck that I had one. I do sometimes think we Medieval collectors should band together and write a guide to Medieval Coins. Something better than Torongo‘s book (or at least better organized). But something like a general handbook covering the types of coins you are likely to see, and where to go to find more information (as there is no way to cover all of medieval coins in a single volume). Potential stumbling blocks as well, such as these presumably French coins which were minted in Greece...
I too "accidentally" got a medieval coin in a lot a while back, somewhat similar to the OP, I think. But I am woefully ignorant about these things. My attribution is based on my best efforts and a lot of squinting. And I agree, FitzNigel - a guide to mediaeval coins would be great - something basic with lots of big pictures and maps. France - Obol Tournois King Philip IV the Fair (c. 1290-1295 A.D.) Tours Mint + PhILIPPVS R(V)X, cross pattée / TVRONVS CIVIS, Châtel Tournois surmounted by a cross. Duplessy 226 - C.227 - L.231 (0.40 grams / 15 mm)
Considering the degree of complexity and diversity of European medieval coinage, even a superficial overview of types would be a tremendous amount of work and would require many collectors with very different focuses and areas of interest and expertise to chip in.
Understood - and even MEC isn’t comprehensive. I’d think of it as more an overview of major types that collectors are likely to encounter, and a guide on where to find more information. More like a Wayne G Sayles type of intro
Ahh MEC, I am always waiting for one volume or another to be published. By the time they finish all 17 volumes the first one on early 5th-10th century coinage will be around 40 years old. Still, I can't think of any set of works that can compare and I would love to own all of the volumes one day.
How many volumes will MEC be by the time it's done? If it were truly complete a set of books would be absolutely huge to cover the coins between dark ages and the Renaissance.
17 volumes are planned, three of which (so far) are split into two books. So as of now, 20 books long, 5 have been published, 9 are in preparation, and the rest are waiting on the back burner. https://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/research/mec
I'm most interested in the three volumes on the British Isles and Pre Norman Britain/Ireland, but all of the titles sound interesting. The two volume on the Low Countries and the three volumes on Germany also pique my interest. At around $200 per volume getting the whole set would be quite expensive.
The older ones are in paperback as print on demand. The Southern Italy one was only $85 in this format. The photos aren’t as good as the original (there is an amazon comment to that affect, but I can support the statement with my own copy)
Yea, the pictures in the card cover volumes of MEC are lower quality than the hard cover but their not too bad. The one I'm waiting for is Italy Part 2.
