1958 Franklin Half Dollar PCGS MS67+ FB CAC sells for $110k at auction

Why cannot I be both?

 

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Here's where the premise is faulty though. No one was cheated out of anything. First and foremost if someone can't recognize an under graded coin they don't deserve the higher price. In this case though the grade isn't what did the price, the eye appeal and color was the driving factor for the majority of it. There are huge premiums for the right look just like you see with Morgans, the difference is that there are far less in other series.

People trying to play the unfair aspect are grasping for straws.

Plenty of them have. The simple fact that some think they are right while the experts are wrong especially ones basing it off a picture is at the very least thinking their skills are better.

When people say it's wrong when PCGS, CAC/JA, multiple bidders, Legend/Laura ect all of which who have more than likely seen FAR more high end coins than the vast majority posting.....

That made me laugh, well played.

 

It doesn't take much thought to see that the coin in question IS over graded.
Unless you fall into the market grading scheme, then it is what they say it is!​

 

Because trolls go on my ignore list, and silly people get a second chance. You don't care what I think, but I'm trying to figure out if I care what you think.

 

Certainly we all have a lot we could learn from you then. For our benefit can you let us know of all your numismatic accomplishments and how your reputation must proceed you so we can learn from it since it is so easy for you to say JA is wrong, PCGS is wrong, Laura and Legend is wrong, and educated buyers are wrong.

 

I understand @baseball21 You have a problem with me and just about every other poster to answer to this thread. We aren't buying into what you obviously believe. I have no other accomplishment other than what my eyes tell me. And to be frank the coin has too many obvious marks to attain that grade. The luster and tone doesn't make up for it either!

If I had a business such as PCGS does, it would be hard for me to not try to feed the same BS. Especially if you can get them to buy it!

 

Just wondering, what if one can recognize an under graded coin, submit it multiple times, never get an upgrade, then sell it, and watch someone else get the bump in grade?

Someone may well have been "cheated" out of big profits by not having the "luck" of a "better" submitter. And all of this is based on the assumption that the coin was under graded. It's just as likely that people like JA and other experts didn't think it was under graded the first time around (the coin didn't have a gold sticker in the 66 holder as far as I know and multiple people/dealers passed on buying the coin at a fraction of the price....was there only one expert that knew it was under graded?).

 

My father and I read through the PCGS standards for 65 and 66 level coins.
They do leave some 'wiggle' room in there which I think is reasonable.

For example, if a coin has some bag marks AND exceptional luster it may grade the same as a coin with few bag marks AND a dull luster.

I suppose one might disagree with the standard but it is in a PCGS slab and that happens to be their standard. This is good to know when buying PCGS coins.

 

*double post*

 

Numbing

 

There's very few posters I actually have a problem with. What I have a problem with is some of the attitudes being expressed with the bidders are clueless, this is a 65 at best, them thinking they can grade better just from a picture, them thinking they can grade better than the multiple experts who have commented on it on CU who actually saw it and pretty much all of them are fine with the grade ect. There's a problem when people are saying things like it doesn't matter if I've seen it or not.

Yes grading is just an opinion, but some opinions are worth far more than others.

If we're doing hypothetical what happens when it upgrades the first time by Joe Schmo or they get a windfall profit grade on their submission? That can and does happen. A lot of times it can be as simple as timing. They're tight right now, more frequent submitters know that were the average joe may not especially if they believe what some people claim online. I wouldn't be trying crackouts right now until their grading normalizes a bit more from the conservative swing they took.

Someone has already said they made an offer on that coin in the past at 8-10k when the seller was asking almost 20k so clearly others feel it is a special coin as well. As far as other dealers, most of them act like half dollars ended with Walkers and very few really pay any attention to more modern issues. There's a reason why there used to always be stories of their franklin mint sets getting cherry picked because they were just happy to sell something they considered to be modern.

As far as gold stickers, they're crazy hard to get especially at that level. I'm not surprised it didn't have a gold sticker.

 

I agree it’s a special coin, but that offer shows how special some of the experts thought it was: 8k - 10k special; even the seller only saw it as 20k special. It also doesn’t say the grade is accurate. Even the CAC sticker isn’t proof. It does mean JA will offer to buy the coin at his bid price (which is almost certainly a fraction of even the seller’s 20k ask). I’ve also paid strong (or bid high...not 100k or even close to that) on coins that had eye appeal (due to color), but were over graded in my opinion.

PCGS having a mix of loose and conservative periods also doesn’t show that the coin was under graded. It shows that they know how to generate revenue. When the submissions start to dry up, a period of loose grading helps bring in more coins.

And yes gold stickers are rare, but if the coin was under graded and as special as it’s touted, then it should have been a good candidate for one at the lower grade (especially if it eventually upgraded 1.5 points).

 

Tell me that the guy who ruined an 1850 $20 in MS-64 PL “to make it better” knew what he was doing. How much money one has means nothing

 

Those were VERY strong prices for most would have guessed at the time. They both reflect a belief in something very special. The auction was just simply more than one person really wanting it and being willing to spend what they needed to for it. If you have the financial ability to spend 100k+ on a single coin getting something you love and will enjoy can often be more important than price. It's been clear for a while that there are people who are willing to spend what they need to for something they love.

Not being conservative or even ultra conservative doesn't necessarily mean the other period is loose. Loose by comparison yes, but that's different than being actually loose.

The supposed 66 grade is meaningless if it occurred before plus grading since you can't get a plus.

As for the gold sticker I would have been more surprised if it did. I know the currently popular theory for gold is at minimum a coin that would sticker at the next grade, I personally believe it is more restrictive than that and think it's multiple grades with few exceptions. The gold sticker percentage is something like 1 percent of what they sticker and out of that Mercs/Morgans/Commems in the midrange MS are a good chunk of them.

 

I have a hard time calling anyone an expert that can clearly see the marks on this coin. It's called drinking the same KOOL aid as PCGS. This is not surprising.

 

Ah yes there is one example. One. I'm not saying they are all geniuses. But how about the 250 examples in the back of the red book? Funny how the one instance you can give me of a moron with money there are hundreds of others with that kind of money who arent ignorant when it comes to coins.

At this point you are nitpicking just to argue.

 

So someone quite possibly got cheated. The submitter at the prior grade kept running into the conservative grading cycle while the next person stumbled into the "loose by comparison" period. And even if we agree that there is no loose period, a loose by comparison period still achieves the same result as a loose period: someone (especially those with inside info) gets to reap the rewards of a TPG's decision to change the grading standards.

Do you know for certain that the 66 grade occurred before plus grading? Pluses have been around since 2010. So the coin has had 8 years to earn the plus. And the coin could have earned a 67 under the old (no pluses) system, but it didn't. The old 66 grade does matter; multiple graders and a finalizer examined the coin and gave it that grade for a reason. And I don't think the color has improved over the years on the coin to such an extent as to merit a higher grade (unless some doctor found a way to enhance it-which I doubt).

 

I dont consider myself an expert grader but it is what it is. It has a grade of MS67+. If you don't like it then don't use PCGS and maybe start buying coins in PCGS slabs as raw, like you would for a coin in some basement slab like SGS or NTC. Maybe everyone should start doing that and force PCGS to be stricter on their grading. Instead of arguing with strangers on the internet.

Maybe contact David Hall. Doesn't sound like he needs to keep any secrets anymore. Maybe he will tell someone who asks him why this coin graded how it did. Hmm? Any takers?

Maybe it's time someone put their money where their mouth is? Get to the bottom of this issue that has the coin world in such an uproar

 

If we're talking about life in general, there are tons of athletes, entertainers, politicians, and even entrepreneurs that had lots of money and wasted it or lost it.
@TypeCoin971793 is accurate in saying that the amount of money one has isn't relevant in judging if that person is doing something correctly.

 

Not really. How many elite collectors would spend 6-7 figures on a 1913 nickel or an 1804 dollar? And how many pay that money for the hype and bragging rights? How many are able to recognize the coin is premium or not for the grade?

Don’t you even think it is possible that several of these collectors/investors just blindly trust the TPG grade and pay what the market says to pay for the coin in that holder?