1958 Franklin Half Dollar PCGS MS67+ FB CAC sells for $110k at auction

No it's not at all. What's completely ridiculous is the number of people who think they are experts in everything based off a picture. Have you seen the coin in hand? I sure haven't, I'm pretty confident most of the posters haven't either. How many that have posted would be considered a noted Franklin expert?

Yes PCGS/CAC opinion holds more wight than people who just saw a picture and don't understand it

Yes it does matter if its only a picture or you've seen the coin in hand, it matters A LOT. Making a statement like that is not only contradicting yourself but actually very harmful to people who may believe that forum junkies can grade definitively from picture and are experts on everything. Actual experts graded the coin then stickered it then it was sold by a firm that rejects things they don't believe in and the buyers who saw it fell in love. But somehow because you saw a picture that's supposed to mean more?

They grade to their own standard. They agreed, it's as simple as that.

 

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Why is this coin such a problem for you guys?

Apparently many people from PCGS all the way to the bidders, like this coin. I guess what I am saying is that the same people are bashing how much this coin went for and bashing the grade are the same people who lecture about coins not being a wise investment. I totally agree. But yet you guys are so upset about someone paying 110k for it like they just wasted their money on worthless stock. Maybe just maybe to somebody it is worth $110k. And I'm sorry but the same people who hate grading coins based on pictures are saying it is overgraded, based on a photo. No one in this thread has seen the coin in hand.

Again that is coming from someone who hates Franklins. And no I wouldn't pay that much for a Franklin ever. Once again CT members passing judgment like they know everything.

Everyone wants their coins worth a fortune but when one sells for a fortune people are quick to discredit it. Kinda sounds like the typical dealer attitude. My stuff is valuable and yours isnt

 

They already addressed it in the CU forum thread and said they goofed on the estimate "opps". There is actually value for a house to be conservative in their estimates anyway, if they are overly aggressive and things keep falling short it looks bad for them.

That said, an estimate is just an estimate and something that is that nice where you may only get one shot at it in todays market where quality matters yea those things can happen.

This is where your premise if faulty. That was never a $250 dollar coin nor would it be raw. The whole without PCGS/CAC premise is completely faulty too. To use another analogy would you pay the same price for a car that has been certified as you would if it was just sold by a random guy? How about a house before or after inspection? It's not a perfect comparison but it is much the same. Having the TPG and CAC multiple expert certification for what is a beautiful toner allows it to reach it's value, whereas raw significant risk is built in that you account for just as you would with something that had never been inspected in other areas of life.

 

Meh. It is just something to discuss.

There are many things that discount my opinion on the matter.
1: I'm new.
2: I detest Franklins
3: I don't have the coin in hand.

I honestly don't care if people throw bricks of cash into the fireplace.
It is their money, they can value stuff any way they want to value stuff.

Where it touches me, as someone who is learning, is how am I to calibrate my grading skills? I've turned down Peace Dollars with that many bag marks as not being MS65 - so when I see this coin I have to decide if I'm going to readjust my calibration or decide the grade is nonsense.

I went with nonsense.

The photo shows too many bag marks for a MS67+ by a long shot - toning doesn't fix bag marks, IMHO. Now if PCGS is comfortable taking a coin from MS66 all the way to MS67+ with that many bag marks - and if they can get people to buy into that - fine, but I don't have to believe that is credible. Nobody else is hurt if I don't believe it. Really, no big deal.

 

So that auction house can make a $100,000.00 mistake but PCGS cannot?

Never has an inspection or a certification increased the price of a car or house by 100X. Nobody here doubts the value of a certification. Like I've stated several times, I use TPGs and CAC and enjoy their services.

You keep making the point that TPGs add value but that isn't where the argument lies, rather, it is the extreme nature of this that makes it notable.

If you want to believe that is a MS67+ have at it.
It doesn't match any definition of that grade I've ever read.

 

Peace dollars and franklins are completely different and are graded differently. That's the most important thing to learn as well as if all you're doing is counting marks you're going to be using very different standards than how you actually grade. You will get a lot of out dated grading advice from some posters and if you want to follow that you will need to understand that your grading is different than what is actually used.

CAC stickering it throws out your nonsense angle. The + is reserved for coins with great eye appeal. So yes it got a bump for the great toning and the great eye appeal is why the + was there.

What mistake was made? People posting something on a forum doesn't make something a mistake. Forum opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them.

You're to caught up on a 100x. More than one person fell in love with the coin after seeing it and they paid what they had to to get it. Those buyers don't cut a 100k check for something by being dumb like a lot of people that could never be a part of that level want you to believe.

I have no problems with that grade neither do most people that actually saw it

 

Those aren't bag marks. They are planchet marks. They were there before the coin was struck. It has already been said that this Franklin probably came from a mint set. Those coins don't end up in bags they get put into cellophane. Once again if you are looking at this coin in hand those marks are nearly invisible to the naked eye.

Go to HA and see how many 66 and 67 Peace dollars also show marks like that.

 

The planchet marks survived along the ridges where you'd expect contact marks but not in the fields?
I dunno.

 

Full Disclosure: I bid on that coin but had to drop out at 95K.

 

The fields are flat on a die right? Almost like there is more pressure there. The marks in the fields would disappear during the strike. But the high points, those are the deep points of a die not as much pressure or contact is made on the high points of the devices. Planchet marks will not always get obliterated there. It's hard to explain.

Look at an uncirculated wheat cent. Lincoln's shoulder usually has a few marks there. But the fields are free of marks.

Now I will admit and agree that this Franklin was in a mint set and some of those scuffs could have been from being in cellophane and rubbing which is common for those sets. But again not visable without magnification.

 

Thank you for taking the time.
I don't care to be obstinate but I'm a hard sell on this one.

Your perspective and politeness is appreciated.

 

Admittedly, I'm not completely on board with market grading. (1)

If a person cannot articulate in a consistent way, and apply in a consistent way, a grading standard then we've got a crapshoot. If a circulated coin can become uncirculated because the toning is nice then the terms 'circulated' and 'uncirculated' no longer mean anything.

I don't subscribe to priesthoods of any sort.

I do appreciate experience and expertise but that experience and expertise has to be able to explain to me what they're doing and why they're doing it or I'm out. The moment bag marks are discarded because some 'priest' likes the eye appeal is the moment I start looking for the emergency exit.

Kurt wrote at one point that grading is more art than science.

I can appreciate that up to a point; however, when a 66 heals itself up to a 110K 67+ then it starts to sound more like scam than science to my ignorant self.

Regardless, I'll never be in the market at that level so no harm, no foul.

Thanks for your perspective and patience.
It is appreciated.












NOTES
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1: My limited understanding of it.

 

The Franklin is a VF, details (artificial toning).
It is worth melt.

 

The toning has natural progression, it has no trace of wear (VF, really?), the luster is strong, and the strike is good. I brought this coin up because of what it sold for and that I thought it was overgraded.

 

VF = Very Fantastic
It is my own custom grading system.

(I'm having fun on a Friday afternoon. I've been working with Peace Dollars for a year now and I'm not a competent grader yet - I know nothing of Franklins.)

 

The best thing I ever learned at any point was humility. I’m very good with some things and keep it to myself but knowing I don’t know everything and that pictures which are extremely magnified is IMO the fastest way to weed out who to listen to. When people think they know better from a static picture I get the feeling ego is largely involved and that’s what happens a lot on forums

You don’t have to agree you’d pay the amount for something you could never afford, but this idea of just calling it nonsense is not helping anyone’s learning

As I said earlier there’s a lot of people who think they’re world class because they post on a forum.

 

I learn by prodding people who know more than I know.
This gets them to explain things in detail - many times I'm shown to be wrong.

I've been very clear about my level of knowledge.

I think the problem you're facing in this particular discussion (regardless of the value of that Franklin or its actual grade) is that apparently it was previously graded at MS66 and is now an MS67+. If the coin hasn't changed in that time then PCGS doesn't agree with itself on the grade (1). If one claims the coin is MS66 and currently over-graded then the experts at PCGS would have agreed with that assertion at one point.

PCGS (1) would have had to be wrong once, or at the very least, the whole thing is subjective to the tune of 100K. I don't see a way out of that and it seems to leave plenty of wiggle room for the forum detractors.

So was the MS66 grade wrong or is the MS67+ grade wrong?




NOTES
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1: Assuming it was graded by PCGS as MS66 at some point. I've not seen proof of that and I'm working off hearsay.

 

I've yet to see real evidence it was ever a 66 but even if it was that doesn't tell the whole story. It very easily could have been graded before + grading ever happened so 66 or 66+ is irrelevant if plus grades were not a thing first time around.

It's not a secret that eye appeal means more in grading now that a long time ago, so yes certain things will upgrade from eye appeal while other things that were technically graded will downgrade.

I don't have a problem at all trying to learn more, my problem is with some of the "experts" that have never seen the coin and will freely trash it when they would never play at that level and think they can know everything from a picture.

My basic point was just that be careful what you listen to, there's a lot of supposed world class graders on forums that aren't even close to that. Some of those haven't had experience for a decade with it. Real world grading experience does mean something and this idea that some push that it's super lose is not reality.

Actual world class graders that have seen it in hand not only gave a grade but then CAC agreed as did the buyers who saw it in hand, that's multiple real experts. Anyone can type on a forum and that's exactly what happens a lot

They knew what they were doing when they put those bids in

 

To be honest, that gives me paws (1).

From my noob perspective I don't understand why a coin couldn't be a technical MS66 and have fantastic eye appeal without the need to express that eye appeal as a full point or two in grade.

That is, why do people think allowing eye appeal to override technical standards is a good idea when eye appeal is so terribly subjective.

It seems to me that technically grading it at MS66, but with fantastic eye appeal, is more straightforward than tacking on 1.5 points for toning. (If that is what happened). I think that plays right into the idea that the shift over to market grading is about the cash. Having this be more art than science turns the grading services into a priesthood. I don't care for that.

The market already adjusts for eye appeal.
Two coins of the same grade, the more attractive one gets more money.
The grading services don't need to change their methodology here.





NOTES
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1: Paws = Pause, lol... get it? It is late on Friday. I need a drink.

 

Eye appeal is part of a grade especially at the high end. That isn't a secret and they say that. Technical grading hasn't been a thing for decades. If you're learning pure technical grading they're doing you a disservice and that really isn't where someone new should be learning.

There's more to grading than counting marks and you can't even grade my marks without it in hand. Pictures are huge magnification which isn't how coins are graded

One grade was put on. + is for great eye appeal with them. They give out so few that it's pretty clear if you look into the pops and have experience with them.