If You Were The Dealer...

IdesOfMarch01, virtually all the coins I've purchased have been from sources that guaranty authenticity. That's not the point of slabbing. Slabbing high grade coins offers them protection from polluted atmospheres, sweaty hands, & spittle coming from human mouths. Slabbing also offers another opinion in regards to over -cleaning, tooling, artificial coloring & patination, filing & clipping. Aside from that, the info on a slab can also be useful as far as a quick reference goes: date range, location, condition, quality of strike & surface. There is also the convenience of inspecting the coin without the need of handling it, & this comes in handy when dealing with very small coins. As far as sales appeal, slabbed coins are easier to sell & usually fetch more at auction than raw coins. If a person doesn't like the slab he can remove it.

 

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That is why we have flips. I can handle my coin without touching it all day long, but also have the option of physically touching it when I prefer. Its not like all ancient collectors just have coins laying around in piles. Mine are all in flips, with dealer paper flips attached if available, and attributed more fully than Mr Vagi does. Additionally, if I need to closely examine the edges, weigh it, perform a SG test on it, I can.

I think "pretty", common ancient coins might sell for more in plastic to US collectors who just want a few ancient coins, but I actually discount the price I will pay for slabbed ancients to account for the inconvenience and risk of breaking them out.

 

medoraman, I generally keep my coins in flips until I'm ready to sell. There is a group of "elitist" ancient coin collectors who have an almost neurotic compulsion to handle their raw coins & fondle them like pet rabbits. They fantasize about going back in time to when their coins were made. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with these "elitist" collectors who demand that everyone should follow their lead. As far as breaking coins out of slabs, it should be no problem to a person who isn't a klutz.

 

I dont think I am elitist at all, but I do love to handle my coins. Lord, I would never have a pet rabbit!

Yea, I think that is true of most all ancient collectors.

I completely agree with this. I care nothing about following trends. Or anything else people might suggest or demand. I do what I want, collect what I want and that is the end of it. As for slabs. I am a dealer. I understand all aspects and nuances of the topic. As such I am unbiased. If a coin is slabbed when it comes to me as a retail item, I pass it on as is. I dont break them out. I understand people want them that way. And, as Al points out, it is very easy to break them out. Let the buyer decide.

 

For archival storage I also store my coins in slabs, but they're re-openable slabs, along with a desiccant. But overall, for ancient coins, there is very little risk of increased damage from any kind of human handling; bronze disease is pretty much the only risk and this is not exacerbated by physical contact.

I didn't realize that NGC included opinions on these items (over-cleaning, tooling, etc.) when they slabbed coins. To some extent, having a second opinion is valuable, depending on the auctioneer or dealer from which you acquired the coin. Sort of like a second medical opinion. Since I purchase exclusively through my dealer who has over 40 years of experience in the ancient coin market, I've already received this level of verification from his pre-purchase inspection of the coin.

When I display my coins, I have a separate flip with more detailed information on the paper insert with the flip, as illustrated here: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-organization-and-attribution-at-work.250251/#post-1968599
I can't fit as much information on the small labels that are included with my re-openable slabs.

I wonder about the overall accuracy of this observation. I understand the logic that, in an individual-to-individual sale of ancient coins, where the buyer is not an experienced collector, an NGC slab will make the transaction easier and possibly increase the price. But in an auction, my direct, personal experience is that slabs can significantly lower the price at which a high-quality coin sells. Here's my thread on that experience:
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/hadrian-aureus-a-makeover.284246/#post-2526632
Personally -- and I don't have enough empirical data to prove this other than my own experience above -- I believe slabbing of high-quality, high-priced ancients will actually decrease the auction price. Pictures of slabbed coins are invariably poorer than the same unslabbed coin, and if it weren't for my dealer actually being at the auction and viewing the above coin in person, I never would have purchased it. I had seen it online and it wasn't impressive. But my dealer saw it in the slab and knew that it was better than the catalog's picture, so he called me on the spot and we agreed to pursue it. I wonder if other collectors on this site have the same experience with slabbed coins going unnoticed due to the lower photographic quality of slabbed coins?

In any event, I appreciate your detailed answer to my original question!

Postscript: I suppose that this post

Ed Snible said: ↑ I was curious to see the single starred "Choice MS" example in the above population report. It is https://coins.ha.com/itm/greek/anci...22-gm-5h-ngc-choice-ms-5-5-5-5/a/3066-30035.s , and it sold for $36k last month. I reviewed the prices realized for that auction and was utterly flabbergasted. This was a prime example of that reaction. I'm glad you dredged it up. I meant to post this coin and sales price after the auction so we could discuss it. Does anyone here see a reason for the outlandish price it realized? (Cited from: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ngc-population-reports-for-graded-coins.323134/#post-3183387)

provides a counterexample to my theory that slabbing decreases the value of high-valued coins, although maybe the increased price provided by slabbing applies to inexperienced collectors only.

 

I am pretty much in agreement with Ken Dorney’s reply to Al Kowsky.

Maybe there is such a group, but I do not belong to it. I do like to handle my raw Ancient coins - I think I do fondle them on occasion, but not in the way I might have fondled a pet rabbit. But I now do not own any coins that are high grade as you describe/depict them. I think if I did own such coins I might store them in some kind of plastic slabs that I could open and close when I wished to handle or fondle them. I get your point about having high grade coins you wish to sell authenticated and encapsulated in the kind of plastic slab you describe in order to get the maximum monetary yield. Your reasoning makes sense to me and I would probably do the same thing if I was selling high grade coins as you describe them.

I am glad because I do that frequently.

That lets me off the hook - I think everyone should follow their own path in the way they handle, display and care for their coins.

 

Not only is the quality of photos generally poorer than non-slabbed coins, but many slabbed coins sell for less for another reason. Many people who buy slabs are chasing the higher grades. I have picked up a few slabbed coins for excellent prices because they do not include the magic letters AU or MS. Depending on the coin I am quite happy to pick up slabbed coins in VF. The grade is not everything. In fact I have on occasion liked the lower grade coin more than higher grade example because of its combination of attractive features like complete legends, centering, attractive portraits, or complete devices. I always try to buy the coin, not the grade.

I just bought this Augustus Cistophorus in a VG slab for a great price. It went for less because of the grade on the slab. It is however imho a very attractive coin.

 

I have seen in the past some slabs with mentioned tooling and slabbing, but I suspect it may be subjective and dependent on the employee who did the description. We all know there are many very well known and respected dealers who will not mention either, no matter what. Comes down to profit, unfortunately.

The grading services rely on their existence to mass volume and a low service/product. There are many ways they could expand their service but they choose not do to so as it would cut into their profits. I am a capitalist of course, so I dont begrudge them this of course but as it is now I dont see the value in what they provide.

You're additional flips provide much more than any slabbing service would ever (currently) and likely add to the value of the coins more so than they possibly could. You should be commended for keeping this information with the coins (the link above).

Only for non-ancient collectors or recent converts from modern collecting. The average ancient collector places no to less value on slabbed coins. However, I do believe that is changing. As more slab fans turn to ancients, slabs become more important, no matter what our personal feelings may be.

Solidly a 'Fine' in my opinion. But that is the crux, is it not? Who sets the standards? The organization (who ultimately benefits either way, and much more so if they are associated with sellers), or does the individual set that grade? And what is the repercussions if a junior grader disagrees with their boss? Do they lose their job? I mean, their only existence is to churn out the highest product for the highest price.

 

My biggest concern with buying coins that are slabbed at auction is that you are not able to return them for any reason, including authenticity, if they have been removed from the slab. This is true of even some of the most reputable auction houses. Removing a slabbed coin basically negates an auction house's lifetime guarantee of authenticity!

Of course this is a catch 22 as many coins need to be handled and examined to ascertain authenticity. New information on counterfeiter techniques is always coming to light that might change opinions of even the best authenticators (such a NGC). For instance, I do not think Sear or someone who offers a similar service could offer an opinion without removing a coin from the slab in most cases.

This reason alone puts slabbed coins at a disadvantage to savvy collectors IMO

 

I agree. I am a conservative grader (I think), but would have no problem with that coin as a solid F, (and an attractive one to boot).

Grading is a HUGE issue with slabs to me. They are basically taking US grading measures and applying them to ancients. Ancient collectors have had their own grading system before the first pilgrim landed on Plymouth Rock. How dare US graders use their flawed system on ancient coins. I would have had more respect for ancient slabs if they had used ancient coin grading standards, (but of course that limits their profit potential). That is all this is, a third party trying to make millions of the dealer to collector transaction.

 

Dealer to *investor