What Factors Constitute BodyBagging?

Not all of them would be cracked out anymore than they are cracked out of holders from the other TPGs who slab problem coins. Besides, that isn't really relevant to the point that PCGS should do what they have been paid for.

But as long as most collectors disagree, they will continue to receive bodybags and PCGS will laugh their way to the bank.

 

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I agree with the first point, and there probably isn't any way to determine how much business has been lost because of this business model.

I disagree that the slab is a bonus. It ensures that nobody can alter the TPGs opinion of the coin without cracking it out. It also fits many people's storage systems. If it isn't important, why slab any coin? Just tag them all.

I agree that the solution is to buy coins already slabbed. And yes, this has all been discussed before with about the same result.

 

I think there are many collectors who view the slab as part of the entire service package that was purchased. How many folks really believe the slab is throw in for free? Maybe it's just me. I think it's a bad practice, so I'll let it go at that and stop complaining.

 

I can see it now, instead of a bodybag, now your coins come back in a little pouch with your waffle canceled coin in it.

 

I have no problem with them refusing to slab counterfeits and altered coins, but anything else should be graded, slabbed, and if it has any problems, simply note the problems. ANACS already does this, I don't see why the other TPG's can't follow suit. It's what they're being paid for after all... what they're doing now is akin to paying a mechanic to fix your car, but instead they just tell you what was broken, do nothing to fix it, and insist on being paid anyway (I've had exactly that expreience with a mechanic once, and refuse to ever go to him again, and I tell anyone who I can get to listen not to go there either.)

If due to their standards they refuse to slab the coin, they should refund you whatever portion of the grading fee that constitutes the cost of actually putting it in the slab, at the very least. Even better would be to do what ANACS does, slab the coin anyway but note the problem (unless it's counterfeit or altered).

 

I think the real problem is that there are definite standards (several in fact, but they don't differ that much) for grading, but there are NO STANDARDS for "no grading". And it is not just me (a middling experienced collector), but very experienced people cannot agree on what is gradeable and what is not. I think that by now, most graders will come pretty close to the same grade for a coin (say +- 3 out of 70). But I have had the experience of sending in some coins for grading that I purchased from a reputable, local dealer. Two of the more expensive of the lot came back "no grade". I went back to the dealer and he was honestly surprised. He eventually (and unhappily) took them back and gave me store credit for them. But if he cannot tell, who can? This is re-enforced by the common experience of sending them in again and getting them graded successfully by another grader.

How about we start a push to establish standards for "grade/nograde" ?

 

Well said, very true

 

I've read NGC's "No Grade Booklet" on several occasions. Portions of the text describe various kinds of cleaning, but the only types that NGC states they will not grade (slab) on a routine basis are improperly or harshly cleaned coins. Their writings, as I interpret them, leave other types of cleaned coins as qualifying for slabbing. If that were not so, I wonder why they simply did not say all cleaned coins will not be graded, rather than singling out the improperly and harshly cleaned ones. It is listed that cleaned coins may not be graded, but it sounds like it is left up to someone's opinion and not something automatic. This is just one additional area that I feel the tpgs are not consistent/accurate. From reading on-line descriptions of some slabbed coin rarities, it seems that the "top" tpgs will indeed (when it suits them) slab even some harshly cleaned and damaged coins. For an example from the other end of the spectrum, a co-worker had plans to "make a bundle" by removing coins from mint packaged proof sets, have them graded by PCGS, and sell them. He was crushed when nearly 20% of them came back in body bags, mostly for cleaning. One was for altered surfaces, and one for questionable color. It is not the color that I would be questioning.

I have always been of the impression that the plastic slab is part of the service (if your coin "qualifies" for grading). Do they indicate anywhere that the hard plastic slab is a bonus - I have never seen that on any of their websites if they do. Personally, I feel everything submitted should be encased, and I would think no less of any business that noted problems (even of being counterfeit) on the label. I do not see how that would make them look bad since they did not produce the coins. Is one not paying for their expertise and opinion? I would think that they should view all of their opinions as worth protecting in plastic.

Its very possible I don't really understand how they work, as I have never submitted a coin and don't plan to. But I have read their websites numerous times, to verify or debunk various statements made about tpgs over the years.

 

While this is undoubtedly true, the particular dealer I was referring to is VERY knowledgeable. The problem is that there is nothing equivalent to Photograde, the ANA standards, etc. for determining if a coin is gradeable. I have read a lot of the TPG documentation on this, but it mostly simply describes ways coins are cleaned. There is no reference that I can take a coin, in hand, and by following their descriptions decide if it 1) gradeable, 2) not gradeable, or 3) maybe, maybe not. While I may have a lot to learn about grading the fact that professional graders do not agree on the grade/no grade issue makes me believe that we really need some standards.

 

Therein lies the problem. The way I see it you are paying for two services, not just one:

1. Examine the coin and give an opinion as to its grade.

2. Place the coin in a tamper-proof slab with that grade shown on it.

If I pay for both of this services and they only provide one, I firmly believe they at least owe me a partial refund for not having performed the second one.

It clearly costs them money and time to put the coin in the slab, and they have to make up that cost by passing it on to the customers. If they don't have to spend the time and materials to put it in a slab, they are saving money on what the complete service costs that to perform. I see it as both logical and ethical to pass that savings back to the customers, else they're in effect charging you for a service not performed. There's a word for that. It's called fraud.

 

Troodon,

While I agree with you, obviously, I don't think it's fraud because it's disclosed before you pay. I think it's a bad business practice and somewhat elitist, as if the condition of some coins makes them unworthy in some way of touching the sacred plastic. Slabbing problem coins would also be an educational tool to help folks learn to recognize and evaluate condition as well as grade.

Eventually, a couple of top graders will partner with a couple of folks with real business skill, and PCGS and NGC are finished -- all just my opinion, of course.

 

While everyone knows what their business model is, and use the service despite the deficiencies, I can't agree with this statement. Instead of passively going along with the rules, perhaps if more folks complained the rules would changes. Forgive me, but I come from a business where customer feedback is cherished and forms [and reforms] our business model. We solicit feedback all of the time, and take it seriously. Improvement is rewarded, and the customers benefit from it by getting a better product. Of course there are some things regarding legality, quality and safety that are non-negotiable, but I guarantee that something like this would be addressed. We would at least be out there asking our customers about it. The "we know better than the customers" approach means eventual death in most businesses. I don't think it's childish or unimportant.

Has PCGS ever solicited feedback from anyone here?

 

I'm just trying to help them . I know I promised to stop complaining, and I'll try again. It just makes me cringe from a business perspective as well as a collector's perspective.

 

While the rule is stated in a straightforward manner, opinions do come into play as whether the coin qualifies for the rule needing to be invoked or not. It is not just the submittors, I believe the graders don't understand the difference between cleaned and improperly/harshly cleaned as well as they should either - else why all of the returns in body bags of coins sent for grading direct from mint packaging? I agree they are free to construct any type of business model they so choose, and enforce their rules as they so choose (although inconsistency of enforcement is generally not good business practice), but they should be sure of the accuracy of their reason(s) if making a disqualification. Many a time I've heard of a second or third submission being successful. So, first the coin was improperly/harshly cleaned, and later it wasn't? ROFL

I do think that submitters have every right to complain in instances where the tpg makes errors - such as the aforementioned body bagging of submissions that were direct from mint packaging. Things like that cause me to once again seriously question their supposed abilities since their opinion flies against the face of what is known to be. The more I learn of tpgs, the lower my opinion sinks, and they are touching bottom at the moment.

In general, Doug, I think we are of similar mindset in this area, and I was just seeking clarification in case the tpgs had changed their stance on a few things. Personally, and this may sound a tad cruel, I get a bit of amusement when I hear of body bagged returns. Since I feel that the bulk of submissions are made with the intent of using slabs as a marketing tool for increasing a seller's profit at my (and other collectors') expense, I view a return in a body bag as giving that person a helping of what that person was planning to dish out - having to pay (extra) $$$ for little to no added value.