What is the purpose of CAC?

I don’t think you’re the first around here with that idea.

 

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Yes, if/when you have the amount of experience of grading, buying, and selling coins that Mr. Albanese has (he is one of the original founders of PCGS as well as NGC) maybe you can make a business out of CAC II.

Otherwise...I doubt it.

 

While I appreciate that people claim to grade their own coins the fact of the matter is that unless the grade you assign to your coins meets the definition of some generally accepted standard you're no better off than SEGs or NAC. If a person wants to be an island that is okay; however, when it comes to buying and selling a community comes into play and private opinions don't mean much.

 

Never seen the word screw spelled h-e-l-p before

 

A little CAC story... I once bought a 3 legged buffalo nickle in an online auction because I though it was going too cheap. It was a PCGS XF40 with the CAC sticker. It really was over my budget but I had the idea of enjoying it for a while and then hopefully flipping it for a profit.
But when the time came to sell no one was very impressed with my coin because the horn was really not full. I myself had come to the same conclusion, though a nice coin otherwise. I eventually did get my money out of it, but just a caution on giving that sticker too much credibility....

 

I think the reason CAC exists is because the graders don't always consider eye appeal. You can hold two examples of the same coin in your hand, both slabbed and graded the same, say MS 63, for example, but you can look at them and one will look better than the other. The conventional wisdom is one coin is barely making the MS 63 grade and the other is almost qualified for MS 64. CAC certification says their professionals have looked at the coins and determined that the ones they certified are the 'best in that grade.'

Personally, I think, as some others have said, it's just a gimmic to make more money. I can look at two coins graded the same and pick the one I like better all by myself. I don't need another company telling me which one to like. However, the idea seems to be taking off and CAC certified coins do seem to be demanding a premium, so I guess it's up to the buyer.

 

That assumes that there is a definite difference between MS66 and MS67. Nobody can define exactly what that difference is, so a "gold bean" might mean CAC thinks the coin is actually MS67 or just that they think it's nice for MS66. Unless you think you can consistently tell the difference between MS66 and MS67, you shouldn't buy coins at the higher grade.

 

"It's to relieve the gullible of even more money."

This.

 

That's pretty much what it is.

He also helped start PCGS, then left and founded NGC, then left there and started CAC.

Actually the VG-8 would get a sticker, a "VG-8-" would not get one. Eveyone keeps saying or thinking the CAC bean is for "High end of the grade" coins. It is actually for "Solid to high end" for the grade. So a coin that is solid for the grade with no higher end potential at all still gets the bean.

Gold bean means that in their opinion it is undergraded and should be at least the next grade higher.

But since you can't grade you can't access the grade given by the firm that accessed the TPG grade so now you need someone to verify the fourth party. Give it a few years and John Albanese will probably start one.

And the coins I want would have cost me much less to acquire.

 

TPGs are like financial advisors. Do they do what they do out of the goodness of their heart? Heck no - they want to make money on the trades. Yet, would you walk into the world of the stock market without one? Now, some people do their own study and investigation, and do well. Same with coins. Some people study the market and grading, and do pretty well. It all just depends on what you want to do. But, when you go to sell, you may be selling to people who have no idea whether or not the coins being offered are properly graded, because they don't know how to grade. Should they not be involved in numismatics at all? I think the majority of those that do not know how to grade are buying modern coins because of the limited number of grades they are issued in. How many different grades do you think the 2018 proof Palladium $25 coin is going to be issued in? PR67-70? (If it was an Australian or Canadian coin it would come in two: PR69 or 70).

 

A 67 is a higher grade on the scale than a 66. Sometimes the point is between these grades as to get something you can afford and one that is out of your reach. Say, for argument's sake for the coin you want, the diff between a coin at 250.00 for a 66 but for whatever reason, 15,000.00 for a 67. But a 65 could be 50.00 which then becomes common, and having the CAC means showing it is a high level of 66 might mean getting a premium from the buyer. Like it or not, CAC adds value.

 

From 2008 to 2010, NGC expanded their " + ", and " star " designations,
to designate coins graders regarded as high end for the grade, approaching
the next grade...and superior eye appeal for the grade. Sound familiar ? I subscribe to CoinUpdate.com which recently researched and proved that TPG coins graced w/ the CAC sticker command much, much higher prices at auction. So the top 30% of certified coins with such superior eye appeal/full strike that reaches out, grabs your attention are subtly tagged
green. Some people couldn't find big time if they had a road map, so CAC
stickers the color of money on the coin to document the coin is the one to buy as it's a keeper. For my part, I wouldn't collect any coins not CAC material. I collect them as my Sicilian grandfather did, to be an estate inherited by his surviving family, passed on thru generations until it connects with a family member with the same affinity for Silver engraved
fine art that Morgans and Peace dollars have. The life History of my grand
dad is represented on the Obverse of DeFrancisi's Peace dollar. And my life
History is depicted on the Reverse. Zane Grey is probably smiling knowing
he inspired a spagetti Westerner like Giovani Narduzzo, who was a sailor/ cook on an Italian Navy Dreadnaught with his stories of Under the Tonto Rim, his grandson alike with Riders of the Purple Sage. Coins are so much more than money. And the best is none too good for family.

 

I agree with this. CAC was created to combat gradeflation and devaluation that accompanied it. For those collectors who don't want dreck in their collection, CAC is a valuable tool in weeding out the bottom end coins for the grade, thereby maximizing value and liquidity for the collector.

All this talk about CAC collectors not knowing how to grade is crap. In order to be able to understand incremental grading (a, b, & c), one would need to be a proverbial expert with regards to that series. There is absolutely no shame in admitting that incremental grading is beyond your grading skills and insisting on a 2nd third party grading opinion. We need to remember that these coins are typically very expensive, often with price tags in the thousands of dollars. People who can afford these coins are often very successful wealthy people who spend the majority of their time in their field of business accumulating said wealth. Just because they don't have the time to become eagle eyed numismatists doesn't mean they are being fleeced by the evil TPGs. In fact, one could argue that the price of grading and CAC certification are small enough that a high end collector would actually be losing money by spending the time required to learn how to grade for themselves. How does the saying go, "time is money."

 

A fool and thier money...will soon part. I wouldn't buy a cac coin unless the sticker had no merit on the price of the coin. Yes I do get it ...if someone who has not the knowledge ,or understanding of grading it's a tool for them to use. Well so are books, the internet, or other references.
I have said this before it's your money do as you please, however what I don't get is if you are entering a hobby which you know little or nothing why would you trust others to be your guide.
You don't jump into the deep end of the pool the first day of swim class!
That said why would you buy a coin or anything that you "yourself" had not researched?
This isn't a hobby that doesn't require educating yourself ,unless all you want from it is filling a book with little medal circles until all the holes are filled.
If you don't like reading,researching, history, etc.....maybe coin collecting isn't for you.
It is my belief that no matter what you collect researching your collection is job one.
How can one enjoy or appreciate what they have if they have no idea what they have?
Some call it a tool ,to me it's a gimmick !No sticker makes up my mind on the coin in question my baby blues do! Along with the passion to learn as much as possible to enlighten ,and most of all to please myself with the knowledge that the collection I put together is all mine.
One cannot appreciate a victory without the knowledge of a failure.
Buy the book before the coin....and then accept your decision and learn from it be it good or bad.

 

The TPGs, whether one considers them useful or worthless, are really just a logical extension of the racket of the hobby itself. If one truly buys coins only on the basis of what one likes, and nothing else, then why bother with books, with the ANA, with magazines, with seminars, etc.? The TPGs aren't that far off from buying books by experts that also cost money. The books set grading standards and help determine a coins' relative value. Either way you're spending money on expert opinion and not really going it "on your own." You have to rely on someone's opinion or some sort of collective opinion at some point. It probably just depends on how far you want to take it. In any case, the hobby has arguably long been a racket as anyone who has attended a coin show and seen many obvious Fs priced as VFs or XFs priced as AUs. It's a part of anything that involves money - people will want to maximize their profits and standards will inevitably get bent. It's probably unavoidable. Not everyone does this, of course, but enough to justify a generalization. I know I've overpaid for coins on more than one occasion and I don't care. Without people like me (and presumably some of the people who frequent this board) the hobby would never survive. We're all part of the racket but we enjoy it, otherwise we wouldn't pay sometimes exorbitant prices for things that many people consider boring and completely without interest. Everyone takes part in their own racket. It's fine. The TPGs just take it a little further.

 

Bravo Ed.......excellent post.........

 

HOGWASH!
Knowledge,and education isn't a racket!
Educating ones self" no matter what the subject matter" is one of the best gifts one can give ones self or another.
Books, research, classes allows us to learn more, and share the knowlege with others.
Never heard such nonsense.....so I guess all the kids starting school this month is a waste of their time?

 

Not hogwash........straight talk......

 

No, it's hogwash, as are many of the other posts in this thread.