Thoughts about this Sabina denarius?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Roman Collector, Aug 11, 2018.

  1. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    This item has piqued my interest. I've never seen this coin ever and I can't find another example online. It's not in the British Museum collection nor in RIC. It shows no sign of being a fouree and stylistically, it is completely consistent with coins of Hadrian and Sabina.

    303786.jpg

    This obverse is described for a single denarius type of Sabina, RSC 35a, which is extremely rare, and is a hybrid using the reverse of Hadrian's denarius RIC 355. (Other left-facing busts of Sabina with her hair in a plait are known, of course, but they have the obverse legend SABINA AVGVSTA HADRIANI AVG P P.) An example (the only example?) is pictured in Temeryazev & Makarenko:

    20180811_081102.jpg

    The plate coin appears to be this one:

    724866.jpg

    This exact same specimen has been sold many times at high-end auction houses: CNG in 2004, The New York Sale in 2007, Gemini in 2010, and NAC less than a year ago.

    The coin in question has a flan flaw in front of Sabina's nose, but I believe it's a die-match to the COS III with crescent and star hybrid, above:

    Sabina Hybrid die match.jpg

    So, that's interesting in and of itself. The coin in question appears to be a hybrid, too, but to which coin of Hadrian? It depicts Minerva standing left, holding spear and thunderbolt; shield behind to right. The denarii of Hadrian with COS III on the reverse but without additional legend are listed in RIC as nos. 330-358 and none of them depict a goddess with a thunderbolt and spear with a shield at her feet. The closest is RIC 330:

    1704241.jpg
    Specimen courtesy of Numismatik Naumann, Auction 8, lot 329, Oct 6, 2013.

    But this reverse type is clearly different from that in the coin in question (which I post again here to save you from having to scroll up):

    303786.jpg

    What are your opinions on this thing? Is it a genuine ancient Roman coin? A very well crafted ancient forgery? A modern forgery?
     
    galba68, chrsmat71, Curtisimo and 7 others like this.
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  3. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    Did you weigh it?
     
  4. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    3.15 g, 20 mm.
     
  5. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    idk..looks kinda cast to me, but it weighs about right... i'd like to have a Sabina coin. i hope its ok.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  6. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    That was my first impression too ("soapy" junction of devices to the field on the obverse) but the reverse looks more believable. I don't know what to think of the coin.
     
    ominus1 likes this.
  7. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I believe it to be an extremely rare eastern mint denarius of Sabina. A really good find if I am correct. A shout out to @Okidoki is needed as he specialises in these.
     
    Okidoki and Roman Collector like this.
  8. ro1974

    ro1974 Well-Known Member

    i like you coin, would be nice for you a good one great find is it then
     
  9. ro1974

    ro1974 Well-Known Member

    1484911.m.jpg same portret style to me is it good fair coin
     
  10. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    Long day. Sorry it took so long. It looks like your coin is proper weight but the obverse is a Sabina type only rarely used and the reverse not at all otherwise. When we see a combination like that the usual approach is to handle it as unofficial until other evidence corroborates it. To my eye the style of the reverse engraving is not typical of engraving at Rome. If we assume that it was not produced at Rome, that opens the door for an unknown mint that held to the imperial standard (assuming the silver content is consistent with regular denarii of the time). I find this approach more justifiable than calling it a counterfeit, since it is hard to imagine the profit in the private manufacture of coins that value at par with the real thing.

    Congrats on an interesting find, and thanks for sharing it with the rest of us. As always, inquiring minds want to know.
     
    Valentinian and Roman Collector like this.
  11. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    Well, he certainly isn't alone in that.
     
    Okidoki and Roman Collector like this.
  12. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I have only managed to obtain about 10 of the eastern Hadrians over the years. I had been unaware of eastern Sabinas until quite recently and this is the second I have seen appear in about a month.
     
  13. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Great find. I would ask Curtis Clay over at Forum. He may have come across something like this and have notes on the dies. He's a wealth of knowledge.
     
  14. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    I've been out for a couple of days passing a kidney stone or I would have asked earlier. But this query raises for me a question of list protocol (social convention).

    When a person wishes to discuss a coin up for auction, does the fact that they brought it up first at the list make it "their turf" and that other list members should hold back from bidding? I don't want to get black balled by anyone, or looked down on for interfering, but this coin was on my watchlist before it appeared here. I automatically put left facing bust types on my list, and look at the details later. Now, if I bought it away from JC, who has a high list profile, do you think I would dare to show it here?

    To be honest, I fear social reprisal for so much as raising the question. I really don't like this kind of business. I prefer to have discussion held off until the coin has sold. Where does the list stand on such things?

    God forgive me for even bringing it up, but I need to know/be told.
     
    Orfew likes this.
  15. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I posted about it because I am indeed interested in the item, but wasn't sure about its authenticity because I can find nothing at all about such an item. Before I bid, I wanted some opinions from fellow collectors. That's simply not possible to do after an auction is over.

    As for nobody else bidding on it, that would be wrong -- it would be collusion and interfering with the ability of the consignor to make as much profit as s/he deserves. So, if you are interested in the item, go ahead and bid on it. I will bid on it too up to what I consider a reasonable price I'd be willing to pay. I'm not Clio. If you're the high bidder, I'll wish you well. It's not like there aren't other coins out there for my collection.

    So don't fear any social reprisal from me.
     
    Nyatii, Cucumbor and ominus1 like this.
  16. Okidoki

    Okidoki Well-Known Member

    I agree, with you Martin, seems same obverse die link and the Crescent coin, is also eastern minted.

    it's on sale and i am bidding, seller is highly appreciated by me.
    He also sees it a eastern I hope i do win :D
     
  17. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    I don't think so. If someone posts a coin that is for sale, that person takes the risk of increasing the interest in it, but does not have a claim to sole bidding rights among CT members.

    My response can't improve upon that.
     
    Gavin Richardson, Cucumbor and TIF like this.
  18. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    idk.. i guess its the law of the jungle, but i personally wouldn't do that to a fellow collector if i didn't know about it until he posted here... that's how i roll...
     
    Orfew likes this.
  19. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    What is this coin's attribution? Is this yet another unlisted hybrid?

    There seem to be quite a few.
     
  20. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Most of these Easterns are unlisted in RIC/BMCRE. Here is one of my remaining Hadrian examples.

    Hadrian Denarius

    Obv:- HADRIANVS AVGVSTVS, Bare headed, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from the rear
    Rev:- COS III, Mars walking right holding spear and trophy
    Eastern Mint.
    Reference:- RIC -. BMCRE -.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Left facing Sabina busts are not limited to these easterns they occur at Rome too. This was one of mine (added for style comparison):-

    Sabina Denarius

    Obv:- SABINA AVGVSTA HADRIANI AVG P P, diademed and draped bust left
    Rev:- VESTA, Vesta seated left holding palladium and scepter
    Minted in Rome.
    Reference:– BMC III 902. RIC II 398. RSC 14

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
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