Lessons in problem coins: Whizzed.

Average being the key word.... if you're happy being average.

That means you'll get average coins, the coin babes won't be interested in you, you'll not be at the head of the line when job promotions come around, you'll never have kids and those you do have will shun you.... terrorists will hunt you for sport... ...rodents on cointalk will mock you with impunity....you'll die alone under a bridge that is on fire...and so on.

Are you ready to live like that?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

And that does NOT disqualify them from being whizzing ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET except in your mind. The definitional fulcrum is "Does it create flow lines?" and NOT "Does it stack up metal around the devices?" The latter is a diagnostic CLUE, not the definition.

 

I think whizzed has two different meanings in this thread.

If the first case whizzed is a description of the damage.
In the second case whizzed is the method of the damage.

If Doug is using the term whizzed as a description of damage then the metal build up around the rims would be the defining feature of a whizzed coin. If Kurt is using the term whizzed to describe the method of damage then metal build up wouldn't be necessary.

I think using the term whizzed to describe the damage (as opposed to the method) is the more useful application of the term since how the damage occurred often cannot be determined, can be hidden, or may otherwise be unknown.

 

I think you almost have it, but not quite. I say ANYTHING that attempts to mimic regular flow lines IS WHIZZING, per se, by definition. I don't care if they used the hair of identical twin pre-born albino armadillos to do it. Buffing and polishing don't do that - they buff OFF flow lines. As long as it's rapidly rotating and creating artificial flow lines, it's whizzing. If it's not rotating, it's just incredibly tedious tooling.

 

Lake Wobegon. All of the children are above average.

 

Ah okay, so in your lexicon whizzing is 'the creation of artificial flow lines' to mimic mint luster - regardless of technique. A side effect of that activity may or may not be the presence of the metal build up described above.

 

His pics were the sellers ebay pics. I don't believe he ever had the coin in hand.

 

Just so you know, these differences ARE important to collectors. If a coin has ONE problem, PCGS identifies it on the label with a two-digit code that starts with a "9", that would otherwise be the grade. Of course, multiple fault coins are a different matter. NGC gets more verbose with it.

And we have now established that BOTH NGC and PCGS use the word "whizzed", but only PCGS uses "smoothed". I find that fascinating to no end.

 

BINGO! As long as high RPM rotation comes along with it, which IS detectable even if you're not standing over the guy doing it. Now, will device edge buildup USUALLY accompany it? Oh heck yeah, but NOT always. Some crooks have more talent than others.

 

If that's the case, that's one gutsy seller! If MOST eBay sellers had a problem coin, they'd sure attempt to hide it better'n that.

 

That is where I waver a bit still in the definition as you've written methodology into the definition (high rpm) in addition to the description of the damage.

What if (theoretically) a guy could use lasers to mimic flow lines and they looked exactly like the high rotation flow lines? Would the coin be whizzed or would we have to call it lasered?

That is why I like whizzed being only descriptive of the damage and entirely independent of the methodology. The methodology doesn't really matter, the impact on the coin is all that matters.

Am I being too particular here or does that make sense?

 

That would be a category of "tooling", until it got its own label. You are prescient, I believe. I expect lasering is coming.



Worse yet, think what nanotechnology could do to this hobby. It's frightening.

 

I have a favorite seller on eBay that I frequent because he'll say things like "may have been cleaned" in his descriptions, or he'll write "appears BU but likely AU". Such a refreshing change from the guys selling XF coins described as "OMG, AN BLAST WHITE APOCALYPSE MS++++++++++++++++++ GEM BU ORGINAL ESTATE FIND GOGEOUS VINALLA ICE CREAM SCION BUDDHA SMILES BUTTERFLIES"

 

I always wondered if those guys were just dumb, or crooks. I settled on dumb crooks.

 

I still have no idea what the word 'original' is supposed to mean in the description of a coin. Same with the word 'vintage'.

 

Original means it hasn't been messed with. Here Doug and I are gonna be in agreement - it's more often than not a lie.

 

I agree, original refers to a coin that has not had anything done to 'improve' it. But some could, by rationalizing, use original to mean 'genuine', as in it is not a fake. Perhaps for things like books and artwork, that might work, but not for coins.

 

My father and I went to our local coin shop the other day.

While flipping through the Peace Dollars we found a couple of interesting examples and the dealer said, "I wonder if a cleaning would help these?", at which point he got up and cleaned the coins. This isn't the first time I've seen him do this - he was so casual about it.

I've heard it said that if you have a red penny that is 100 years old it has been cleaned at some point because copper doesn't stay red for 100 years.

It seems the standard isn't cleaned vs. not cleaned as much as it is cleaned vs. not obviously cleaned, or perhaps, not cleaned to the point damage is obvious.

Thoughts?

 

I agree with that 99% with one small exception. (Hey, if I'm gonna ask precision of others, I need to do it too.) There are extraordinarily well-kept very old copper coins out there that are still naturally red, but they are the tiny exception. "No such thing" is a slight exaggeration.

Here's where it gets meta - I believe there is an exception to the exception. When referring to proofs especially, then I believe there's no such thing as a 100 year old proof cent that's naturally red. There is a reason. BOTH late INC's and early Lincolns came in a wispy tissue paper that resembles Kodak Lens Cleaning Paper in weight and texture, but it apparently had a high sulfur component that imparted toning very quickly. Carl Waltz, Jr. of Lancaster, PA is one of the Top 5 "Mac Daddies" of early matte proof Lincoln cents, and he INSISTS there is no such thing as an unmessed with matte proof Lincoln in red, and I believe him.

Oh, your local coin shop owner is a butcher.

 

So it would be accurate to say that there aren't really (except in the rarest of cases) any 100 year old coins that are shiny that haven't also been cleaned, which means that the lack of a cleaned designation on my slab really means "no apparent damage from cleaning".

I'm okay with that - it just helps to understand some of the minutia here.

It has recently occurred to me that I'm not going to get good at this until I'm willing to invest a significant amount of time looking at lots of coins. Some of the tells are so subtle and only become obvious by really studying the surface.