In the description: "Nice original desert patina" I've complained to vcoins many times about undeclared applied sand patinas, but he's back to his old tricks. I need a Nigrinian, but not from this guy.
I think they do it to make a worn coin look better, out of the three on Vcoins I think for value the numiscorner example is better value.
For the benefit of those new to the subject, please point out what you see in the photo that tells you the sand is not natural. We have a lot of new folks here since the discussion was fresh. It would also be good to post a photo of a sand coin you accept as being correct.
I think the only applied sand is the area before the bust, which was done to even out the look. I could be wrong.
Yes, so for background - Athena is a vcoins dealer who has many coins with the same kind of "earthen" patina, even London Mint coins: He has been called on this many times. One example that comes to mind is the coin of Nepotian he once offered for sale: The same coin previously sold in a Roma auction, prior to having the reddish patina applied (and not declared): https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1596405 After complaints to vcoins, Athena started declaring "applied earthen patina" on some of his offerings, but now it seems he is saying the patina is natural, or not declaring it at all. An example from my own collection, of a coin having a genuine sand patina, is this Vabalathus/Aurelian: His coins are certainly genuine - but they seem to have an earthen patina applied to improve the appearance and increase the asking price. Application of artificial patinas should be declared - otherwise the customer may be surprised or disappointed to learn that the patina isn't natural. More info from a previous time this was uncovered: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=93245.0 A nice quote from that thread: "Nice mark-up - $3,000 uplift for a bit of sand and glue applied as "patina". People (err maybe that should be suckers) just love that "desert patina" and will pay big bucks for it!"
I think some desert patina is fake but also some is original but just pop out things on (worm) coins better. For example on my coin (Antiochos VIII): The coin is very worn and if the desert patina is removed the letters are barely visible/readable. I do believe the desert patina on this coin is real however I have no idea how to distinguish between fake and real desert patina.
I’m just glad you guys are willing to point out these types of sellers. When I started with ancients a year ago I remember Athena being mentioned with fake patina and a lot of photo proof shared. Anytime I was on vcoins afterwards I might happen across a coin that at first glance was interesting. Then I saw it was from Athena and said NOPE. It’s important to do this on a regular basis at least for us newbies.
I would buy from Athena if he was an honest dealer - he has plenty of coins that I’d like for my collection. The same goes for Zlobin / “high rating low price” on eBay, often mentioned on CT. He overprices his coins by an order of magnitude, then reduces the prices to triple what the coin is actually worth. Although you can make a “best offer”, his intent is clearly to deceive people and sell for a price much higher than is reasonable. The practice of “false discounting” - claiming a price has been slashed when the item was never available at that price - is illegal in many countries. Don’t reward the bad behaviour of these people with your business.
I've met Saleem from Athena. He's a nice guy and I have a few coins from him (without the fake patina). But I agree, it should be disclosed that the patina isn't original.
Interesting read - as was the thread here: I have mixed feelings about this practice. On the positive side, it can certainly improve the appearance of what in many cases would otherwise be rather average coins. There is even a degree of artistry to it. And while I take GregH's point about not encouraging such practices, I do have to admit to having brought a couple of coins that I believe have fake desert patinas (albeit that unlike the Nigrinian coin above, I doubt that what I paid for the coins (all relatively common and in average condition) would have been anything remarkably different to what they would have sold for if they had not had the patina applied). But on the negative side, it seems to be to be objectionable when it is: a) done to rare coins, coins that do not benefit from it, and/or coins where the fake patina is applied badley; and/or b) done primarily to hide defects, especially where that is not disclosed; and/or c) where the coin is advertised in a a way that claims or implies (whether by act or ommisison) that the patina is geniune. In the first instance, the practice seems little more than vandalism. The second and third instances are at the best misleading and deceptive behavior and probably unlawful under consumer protection law in most jurisdictions, and at the worst may be skirting dangerously close (if not overstepping) the line between civil and criminal conduct.
Didn't one of the sellers chime in last time this came up? What I don't like about the practice is it's an attempt to give a coin more eye appeal and get a higher price. It also hides flaws or corrosion that I may not want on my coin. Because of these sellers and the posts here desert patina gives me pause.
Yeah Salem / Athena himself made an appearance last time to defend himself. Not very convincingly, mind you.
I have no mixed feelings about the practice like some here do. The way I see it, you can roll back the odometer on a car that's done 150,000 miles and give it a fresh coat of paint, but it's still a worn car and now you are trying to pass it off as something better than what it is. Same with meat, you can probably re-hydrate an old steak in water and add some spices to it and sell it as a fresh spiced stake to a customer, and who cares if he gets salmonella. Right? No, no matter how you look at it it is wrong! Sure, a fake patina can hide some unsightly corrosion and make a worn coin pop out and look better, but at the end of the day you are still selling a polished turd to an unsuspecting customer. Why not show the coin as-is to the customer and let them decide if they want to buy it at whatever the reasonable market price might be, and the customer will be happy later knowing they got exactly what they paid for and you can sleep easier knowing you didn't sell a lemon disguised as an orange.
