Spacefiller Saturninus

https://www.academia.edu/29744478/L_Empereur_et_l_usurpateur_un_4e_atelier_oriental_sous_Probus
Looking over the article above, it struck me that I already owned a coin that would serve as a space filler for the emperor Saturninus which we all know will not allow us to complete a set of one per emperor. The article proposes a 4th mint producing coins for Probus in the East and separates these coins from issues of Antioch and Tripolis which they resemble. Further it proposes that this mint was set up to provide coinage needed to support military operations by Probus in the area against a usurper who was Saturninus. Since only a couple of us will ever be able to own an actual coin of Saturninus (you know, your friends at the British Museum, for example) this Probus will be as close as we come. The article explains the situation but just in case it being in French is a big a problem to you as it was to me, I will point out that the matter has been discussed at length over on Forvm Ancient Coins (the more scholarly venue where most would not suggest that anyone might collect one coin per ruler). You can read the article or read Forvm to learn the distinctions of 'mint 4'.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=107510.0

I do not collect in this way but the next time one of you asks who is the most rare number in the ERIC II list represented in your collection you can expect to see me raise my hand and show my "sort of Saturninus".


Who else has one?

 

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Interesting, but I do not have one.

 

Nope. But who knows a Saturninus ant might show up in an uncleaned hoard one day, beneath all the crud.

"After Probus had left Syria for the Rhine in 280, unruly soldiers and the people of Alexandria forced a reluctant Saturninus to accept imperial office. He fled from Alexandria to escape the pressure but changed his mind in Palestine. He proclaimed himself emperor in 280. Before Probus could respond to the threat, Saturninus was dead, killed by his own troops." - Wikipedia

 

I saw a perfect FDC example in NFA auction in 1989. Of course, I did not have 245K to secure it
Probably would have been a good idea to have gotten a bank loan and bought it My problem is that I could never ever sell it, since I would have fallen in love with it....

 

Thanks for the post, Doug. I immediately ventured out to look for one, and I think I managed to find one:



Did I succeed?

 

Interesting. Mine is from Antioch, so just it's Probus :/

 

I've some fun with this particular type due to our very own @John Anthony. I saw the Γ· version in one of his auctions and the bust looked so unusual I bid on it and won. At that time, I think John (and certainly me) thought it was just an Antioch mint coin with an unusual bust type. Shortly after the auction he e-mailed me with the same links Doug provided above. Great stuff!

After that I thought I should check my other Probus coins (I only have a few) and lo and behold I had the A· workshop. Of course now it's game on to try and find the other four workshops. I have 5 of the 6 - the only one I don't have is the OP coin.



Something has clearly gone wrong when I resized the second image but it should give you the idea.

I don't know why the style of the eastern mint portraits differs from Rome so often - i've noticed it as well in the eyes of the denarii of Elagabalus and Severus Alexander I have. Surely they had access to coins minted in Rome so copying the "official" design should have been easy to do.

 

I suspect certain Eastern styles were quite intentional and cultivated. I can spot almost any Alexandrian Imperial issue just by the style of the bust, for instance.

 

Yes!

Why not try to do the best we can instead of copying Rome which was not nearly as important and competent as they liked to think they were?

 

Woohoo!! Thanks, Doug.

 

Plain ol' Antioch with large globe.

Dude, you lack all sense of self-control...
... and, naturally, I'm now green with envy .

 

@dougsmit , thanks for starting this thread and pointing out the existence of these coins. Mine, which RIC gives to Antioch, is from Estiot's "Fourth oriental workshop" with Gamma dot:



21 mm. RIC 922. "Antioch", however "Fourth oriental workshop" according to Estiot. The Forum discussion mention there is a new site on Probus

http://probuscoins.fr/

It has searches with dropdown menus of all possible legends, etc.

 

mea culpa...

And now we're all green with envy over @Valentinian's nearly flawless example!! Wowzers!!

Plus his Victory totally looks like a squirrel! Damn. Now I want a squirrel.

 

Here's mine!


...Now what I'll be looking for is a RESTITVT ORBIS from the fourth eastern mint's fourth emission. If I'm understanding S Estiot's paper, RIC 925 RESTITVT ORBIS coins can be split into coins minted in Antioch and at the fourth eastern mint, distinguishable only by style (for at least the first six workshops)(correct me if I'm wrong).

Wishful thinking wants my below coin to be one of those mysterious 4th mint coins but my eyes are telling me it's probably an Antioch coin...

Sorry for the poor photos... the best can I do lazily on a Sunday night.


Probus
Probably Antioch...but maybe a 4th Eastern Mint.
280-281 AD.
IMP CM AVR PROBVS PF AVG, radiate, draped, cuirassed bust right /
RESTITVT ORBIS, Woman standing right, presenting wreath to Emperor standing left, holding globe and sceptre.
Officina letter S in lower centre, mintmark XXI.
RIC V-2 Antioch 925; Sear 12021.

 

If it is of any comfort, the Victory on yours looks like a dancing lizard to me .

 

Doing the 'YMCA'?

 

here is that AV Saturninus aureus

 

SATURNINUS PLACEHOLDER

RI Probus Æ Ant 22mm 3.75g 280CE CLEMENTIA TEMP XXI Emperor receiving Victory from Jupiter GAMMA-Dot - UNKNOWN EASTERN MINT - fight Saturninus

 

Excellent thread! I just saw it after the post of @Alegandron in this thread:
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/roman-empire-usurpers.320726/

I think that I have one, from the "4th oriental workshop", after I read the Estiot's paper. Although there are incrustations in the central field below Jupiter and the Emperor, I can get with the aid of a magnifying glass, see a delta letter with a dot after it. In addition, I found the pattern of Probus's bust also peculiar, something different from those of Antioch.
Maybe I want to see something more than really exists, so I ask my colleagues and especially @dougsmit to help me, please. After all, who does not want a space-filled Saturninus?

 

I am no expert but believe the Multatul example is Antioch style. I believe I see an M made from IVI in Clementia. That is an Antioch thing. Every day that passes since this thread was new makes my opinion less valuable. This is not a specialty I am pursuing but I am glad there are several here that found the topic worthwhile. Most great rarities can be 'simulated' with a related cheap coin at least to some degree. Sure it would be better to have one of those real Saturninus coins. Who owns them? When will they sell? Probus looks better now.