Third Party Grading vs. You, the Amatuer

The person whose comments you quoted has had plenty of criticism for the TPG's on occasions - I've read a number of them. A person can legitimately respect the abilities of professional graders, but still find fault with the (practices of the) companies they work for.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Well...whether he has critisisms or not...the point was, he is making money buying raw coins, slabbing them, and flipping them for what he calls a premium. I call it something else. So of course he will be all for the concept

 

The number of posts a person has here or elsewhere has nothing to do with how active a collector he is. And, while grading is in part subjective, it's certainly not "all subjective" (edited to add: especially in the case of grading circulated coins). If you really believe that you are kidding yourself.

 

This is my opinion on TPG's:

 

Back to the original thread - I don't know - but I voted "no". For the simple fact I feel like I can grade certain coins, but I still use reference material. I am sure if I studied other coin types (gold,jeff nickels, etc.) enough I could learn what to look for on those coins to grade them. But overall I need lots of reference material - and I do use heritage a whole bunch as reference material. One reason it has taken me so long to send in some coins to be graded to PCGS.

 

Still never heard of him or you till you joined a few weeks ago...

No, I'm not kidding myself, I trust myself. I rely on my skills as a technical grader for my coins and others (yes there are a few who ask my opinion at times) who approach me with theirs. I have the luxury of taking my time for adequate research and subsequent variety attribution.

Incidently, 'Market Grading' (which is sweeping the hobby) is nearly all subjective and it doesn't require a college education either.

Take Care
Ben

 

Most dealers are not pleased with the TPG. Do you think they like having to send in a coin and spend $25 to have it graded just so they can sell it to a collecting population that is getting dumber and dumber every day?

I very much like slabs. They help my business model. I won't deny that. I slab thousands of coins every year. I have over 1,250 in at one of the TPG right now and another 1,500+ waiting to go in later this month. If I could make as much selling the coins raw, I would, but collectors are demanding the coins in slabs so that is what I provide for them. I'm a capitalist.

As for your misattributed ancient, mistakes happen. I've seen it from all the TPG services. I've seen it from the biggest auction houses. I've seen it from long time extremely well respected dealers. Mistakes happen. If you have no faith in anyone that has ever made a mistake - even a blatant mistake, then you must have faith in no one including yourself. ICG has slabbed fakes and they have made good under their guarantee. They've misattributed and corrected the mistakes when brought to their attention. If you want perfection, sorry...

 

I question whether collectors are DEMANDING slabbed coins as much as they just help your profit margin if you do it. Certainly there are plenty of people who will BUY a slabbed coin, whether they WANT it slabbed or just want that coin I have no clue. I have bought slabbed coins mainly because I like the COIN that just happened to be slabbed and it was still priced reasonably...I dont know any collector (for ancients and world mainly) that would give a damn if a coin is slabbed and they certainly wouldnt be suckered into paying 20-30% more for a coin that was... But what you are saying and doing are a prime case of what I think is wrong with this hobby and TPGs...and that is, of course, my own personal opinion...these people are probably not experienced or simply are okay with paying far more for a coin from a flipper / middleman because they have bought into it.

I certainly DO trust myself...thats my whole point. I would not have made such a glaring error attributing one of my own coins, let alone if someone was paying me to do it...not that I would take money to do something so simple...something I do for free for people.

I find that in the HOBBY of collecting there are trends, some good, some bad...often times such trends are taken as scripture when they are, in fact, just a construct that has little reason...or flimsy reasons, for being. Often people buy into such things whole heartedly never even examining what bill of goods they are being sold...or who is selling it and why. Like the rabid anti-cleaning craze that simply never existed before...now people wont even discuss it, they just default to 'OMG never clean a coooooin...pay someone to do it if YOU MUST!!!' or the way people seem to simply accept TPGs as a good thing for this hobby (people meaning collectors, not dealers, we have seen why dealers like them.)

I will tell you one last thing. This is my hobby...I love the hobby...its an important part of my life but I make my money and it represents hours of my life I will never get back...when I buy a coin, I want it as cheap as possible and anything I see as just another group of people attempting to add that much more to the cost of already expensive coins, I will be against. Its your right to do so, you are just a 'businessman' as you say buying coins, throwing them in a slab, and reselling at well over the coins worth...Now those collectors in the hobby, whether they want that stupid slab or not, will have to pay YOUR over inflated price for the coin when if you were out of the picture, they could have just bought the coin at a reasonable price...and they are the ones who have the real love for that coin...its just a way to eek a bit more money our of the hobby for you, for a collector it is a prized possession they now have to pay inflated prices for. There is simply nothing a TPG does that cannot be done by an informed collector or group of collectors for free. Now if collectors are lazy and dont want to learn about this aspect of the hobby and would rather pay another to do this for them, no problem at all...its when great coins become 10-20% more expensive for real collectors who care about the coin and not what profit they can make from it because someone sealed it in a slab...that sucks. nuff said from me.

 

I'm sure you have and I'm sure they are nice guys, never said they weren't. I simply said that I'd never heard of them and am a (40 year) coin collector to boot. What I was trying to convey was that there is a very large coin collecting public who doesn't hobnob with the luminaries of the hobby at coin-shows all over the country. Some would call it a clique, I simply call it friends who know each other...

Chuckle obviously... You see I prefer this board over some of the larger ones because of the tone and the people who post here. Folks have to tone it down a notch from some of the LARGER coin forums, so-to-speak and more times than not these rules of decorum are honored.

Take Care
Ben

 

You noticed that as well? I find a few members across the street to be rather snobbish and thats distasteful to me.

" Ok, those of you who can only afford budget coins, say in the 3-5K range...you'll never know nothing..........you are lowlifes

 

Lol, what about the 3-5 hundred range?

Phoenix

 

LOL - getting warmer - How about the $30 - $50 range . I guess I'm doomed :headbang: :desk: to never really understanding the hoddy. I don't think so!!!

 

dont mean to disrespect any coin site or member, just a cpl comments I mean to dis....

 

So, Mark, are you also speaking of yourself?

 

Same here, and I've met Mark on a few occasions. Haven't met Greg yet, but have bought from him.

 

With respect to what, Ken, my grading consistency? If that's what you were asking I don't know the answer. That's because I haven't assigned myself a consistency score against which to test myself.

 

Yes, that's what I was alluding to. Thanks for answering.

 

I thought this post was pretty clear - most people have a big ego or are to short-sited to admit or understand that they have shortcomings. It's obvious that Mark has experience that is well beyond that of many. I for one have to respect that he is going to know things that I wouldn't know without years of dedicated research. I don't know him from Adam - and I certainly don't put him on any pedestal just because he has experience that I don't - but I have the feeling that I would like him if I met him. On this site at least he seems to tell it straight-up without any hidden agenda or mixed messages. Samuel L. Jackson said it best - "Character goes a long way" not to infer anything but just that!

 

I did not see an answer that seemed to closely fit my opinion, so I voted that I am as good or better than, but that would be my opinion in regard to exonumia only, Civil War tokens in particular. My expressed opinion is based solely upon tpg slabs that I have seen for cwts. While slabbing has very recently branched into other areas of exonumia, I typically skip over the slabs, so I can not comment on their quality. I would estimate the cwt slabs to be about 95+% NGC with a random ANACS or SEGS or other example. Since slabbing of exonumia is a relatively recent occurence, I know I have been studying cwts far, far longer (bought my first cwt back around 1965) than any of the grading companies have been dealing with them. Also, due to the relatively low numbers of cwt slabs (22 current NGC cwt slabs in the cwt section of ebay at the writing of this post), I would dare to match the quantity of cwts that I have examined up against those of any professional grader. IMO, it is very possible that I own more cwts than a typical tpg grader has even looked at.

For regular coinage though, you would admittedly find me back at a level not far above beginner, as I have not been significantly involved with that area for many years. From reading some of the posts, professional graders must display a much higher level of expertise with regular coinage than has been my experience with exonumia. On the topic of tpg errors, that is one of my big beefs concerning the tpgs, having seen ebay offerings on some days with double digit error percentage rates, and that just includes errors of identification and copying of the merchant's name to the label. Neither is there a shortage of grade assignments with which I also disagree, but that may come from their lack of experience with the miriade of diesinkers, metals, striking methods and such. There is also the inherent disadvantage of few examples for reference/comparison, since about 70% of the 11,000+ varieties have populations of 20 or less, and a large percentage of those are at a pop of 10 or less. Numismatic publications have printed only a few stories regarding multiple submissions (and usually small sample quantities), but none that I have read presented the tpgs in a light of consistency.

As far as collectors demanding slabs - perhaps with regular coinage, I really don't know. But I feel exonumia collectors simply don't have much need for slabs. I can expound on that if anyone is interested in my reasons for stating such. Some token societies, with the support of their membership, have created websites for the sole purpose of urging tpgs to "leave their facet of the hobby alone". I wish I had saved some completed ebay auctions when cwt slabs first appeared, in order to be able to provide visible proof, but some long time posters to the ebay C&PM discussion board may recall when I brought to their attention a number of completed auctions for various NGC MS graded Civil War tokens that could not even attract the $ .01 opening bid. That doesn't sound like much demand to me. I tend to agree with Drusus in a general sense, in that it seems submissions for slabbing are all too often made with the primary goal of increasing profits. 19 of the above mentioned 22 cwt slabs on ebay are for sale by one of three sellers, one who typically has well over half of the cwt slabs.

Granted, my opinions are generated from a small, and rather obscure segment of the hobby, but the level of quality I have seen is no where near one that I would consider "professional". Personally, I would be embarassed if I operated at that level. In addition to the thousands of cwts in my personal collection, I have examined and identified thousands more that I did not purchase, and hundreds of others for friends as well as a few regular (ebay) cwt sellers - all at no charge, just because I love to do it. While grading is largely subjective and inherently open to a difference of opinion, identification is not. I would put my record of identification up against any tpg any day of the week. I can point to some tpg identifications that, for every example that I have seen thus far, have been in error. And I believe they will continue to make those same errors because they do not know what they are doing wrong. The "average" cwt collector would likely know these sorts of things, a "professional" most certainly should.

I am sure that some will dispute what I have written, or believe that I am exaggerating, and if you do, I will be more than happy to start providing examples to demonstrate what I have written is true. If as a collector, your experience has been better than mine, I'm glad for you. I have a pretty good idea why sellers/dealers like tpgs. While I am not fond of tpgs, I am not totally against them either, as I believe they do provide a valuable authentication service. That is not a service needed much with cwts, and the Civil War Token Society provides that service either free or for a couple of bucks (and I would value their opinion more anyway).