Third Party Grading vs. You, the Amatuer

I'd agree with that, Mark. In fact, I said as much in my first post. If I were to be handed the number of coins on a daily basis to grade as graders at a TP, I'd be nowhere as consistent, and in fact would be quite horrible numbers-wise, for lack of time to do it right. On the opposite end, if a pro grader were to sit down with me and have all day to grade a single coin, I'm sure he'd be able to blow my grading away, because he'd have the time to do it correctly. Just like in any business, mass production suffers in quality, regardless of how good you are.

And no, I don't see you as picking on me. In fact, it's a rather informative conversation with two very differing views.
Guy~

 

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Strongly agree.

Give it a try. MS62 $10 Libbies and Indians can be had for $500 - $800. Crack 'em out, send 'em in.

When they come back MS65, they'll sell for $5,000 - $8,000 . Ten times as much.

If there are folks who really believe the top TPGs are so wildly inconsistent as to routinely upgrade these fellas from 62 to 65, give it a try.

 

This is one reason I said "No, I'm not as good as the TPGs". It's also one of the prime reasons I am convinced top TPGs have done a great service to the hobby / industry.

This is the other main reason I know I am not in the same league as the top TPGs.

There are a few series I'm pretty good in. But I would be arrogant indeed if I pretended that my moderate expertise in one area qualifies me to tackle the breadth and scope of the entire US series.

And TPGs handle coins from all over the world.

 

NO.

I am comfortable within my area of the hobby

 

Honestly...I just couldnt argree less with this...no offense meant as it is simply two different opinions. We all have them.

 

What do you disagree with? Do you think that professional graders aren't gifted? That forum members here are better graders than the professionals? Please explain?

 

Ben, you should define "some".
I think many here are far better than GEC and the likes.
But, I took all the TGPs into my consideration and came to the conclusion that they make me look like dog doodie.

 

I don't think that SGS, GEC, NNC etc should even be considered TPG's, they are a false advertising/marketing tool and there is nothing 3rd party about them.

I believe the context of this poll was actuall, serious "third" party firms, with no objective other than to weed bad from good and grade the good ones..

 

No, I don't. And I am not ashamed to admit it. Although I have collected coins for 44 years (not an active collector that entire time) and I have taken courses in coin grading and counterfeit detection I know that I don't have near the experience that the TPG graders have. For one thing, they have had much more training than I have. And they may authenticate and grade a couple of hundred coins a day where I don't get to see nearly that many coins.

One important thing that has not been touched on yet in this thread is the difference between Technical Grading and Market Grading. I remember back about 1970 or so I bought the Photograde book so it would help me to be better able to grade coins. The grading guides (ANA, Brown & Dunn, etc.) up until about the advent of Third Party Grading Services all stressed Technical Grading. No matter how beat up a coin was, if it had no circulation wear it was uncirculated. And if a coin had circulation wear - no matter how little - it was circulated.

Now we are in the era of Market Grading. Market Grading is not as concerned with how a coin technically grades; it assigns a grade for a coin based on how a coin will be priced compared to other coins. Now a circulated coin can be graded MS. A very attractive coin with very light circulation wear, great luster and only a few marks can grade higher than a strictly uncirculated example with poor luster and lots of bag marks. The circulated coin may grade MS-62 vs. MS-60 for the other coin BECAUSE it is a more attractive coin and will command a higher price than the unattractive uncirculated coin. By Market Grading reasoning, a coin that will sell for more money than an MS-60 coin should have a higher grade than MS-60. (Never mind that it is circulated. It is worth more so it gets a higher grade.)

I am an engineer. I have had numerous math courses. To me, 2 + 2 = 4. There is no other correct answer. Any other answer is wrong. That is why I have trouble with Market Grading. In my mind either a coin is circulated or it is uncirculated. But with Market Grading that really attractive circulated coin can be graded "Uncirculated". No matter how good I am at Technical Grading I may never master Market Grading.

 

Follow up on Hobo

I sell more attractive, high end AU's at higher prices than MS-60 and 61's for the simple reason they are more attractive and presentable. More people want them and are willing to pay extra. I DO NOT call them uncirculated either.

I do not mean " put up for sale" I mean sell.

 

I am probably in the middle.

 

This is the root of the matter. I believe almost anyone here can grade a coin if they spend enough time with lots of coins in hand and study what to look for. Like with anything having to do with the collection and study of coins, one must simply learn from those who know and more importantly to be very familiar with the coins you are looking at...a lot of it is common sense. In essence look and study a lot of coins in hand. With every coin one becomes more knowledgeable. I think many people sell themselves short and/or have an exaggerated idea of the level of difficulty of the task with the coin in hand.

 

It is fairly safe to specialize like many collectors do.

I do have a question here. Do the real TPG's have (other than errors/ ancients/etc ) specialists?

Ex 1 guy or gal who gets the Morgans, 1 the gold, 1 the moderns? Or 5 or 10 for that matter, in other words, are the TPG's departmentalized in any way?

 

I agree. I've had the pleasure of meeting many current and former TPG graders.

The first time I met Mark Feld I was very impressed at how quickly he saw things. They weren't necessarily things I missed, but the speed at which he saw them and how quickly he formed his opinion was impressive.

I've also had the chance to show a wide variety of coins to a grader. The variety would make most people's head hurt. He didn't bat an eye coming up with opinions and pointing out certain things.

 

Yes and no. For bulk submissions I know the TPG have some graders that will do only certain coins (i.e. mint state non-copper coins). For regular submissions, I know some of the services have certain graders for the lower value coins. However, once you get to the main graders, they can pretty much do it all, but the TPG may have a requirement that a certain type coin must be examined by a certain grader as they are well versed in that area.

 

A large percentage of MS60-62 coins I look at appear to be AU coins to me. Usually I attribute this to my lack of understanding of exactly what qualifies as MS, but I've always had a suspicion that many coins get a free pass to MS status by the TPGs. After all, everyone wants to believe their coin is uncirculated. Nevertheless, I still strongly believe the TPG graders are far better than I am. In my own collecting, I'm usually satisifed to own a nice AU coin rather than pay-up for the MS designation.

 

I hear ya.

In a sense, it's a "tail shakes dog" scenario - in essence, market value drives the numerical grade. The market evolved such that there is an increase in price as the number increases, and that makes sense ... up to a point. It fails at the AU58 / MS60 borderline.

Probably more sensible would be one range of values for circulated coins and a second range of values for MS coins, with an overlap such that AU58 prices are higher that MS60.

I'll always wonder how much the Red Book drove the status quo (i.e. MS > AU). It always shows AU pieces as less valuable than MS pieces - which many feel is not realistic. It treats numerical grade vs. value as a single continuum, which it's not.

Whether warranted or not, the Red Book has a very significant place in the psyche of many collectors.