I am trying to decode the coat of arms on a Nevers-Rethel patagon of Charles III Gonzaga (1637-59) (also Duke of Mantua as Carlo II 1637-65) Here is my best guess on the multi-field arms: Arms: 1st quarter: Gonzaga (qtrd., horizontal bars, eagle (Palaiologos family) and Bohemian lion); 2.Bar (2 fish) & Cleve ((6 arm cross of staves) divided; 3. Alençon or modern Burgundy (3 lis on bordure) over ? Montferrat (2 unequal horizontal bars but what is diagonal bar doing there ?) 4. Aragon(vertical bars) over Brabant(lion) with small escutcheon with eagle ? and something else ? Any help would be greatly appreciated. For completeness, here is the reverse:
The coin you've pictured is one of Charles II, not Charles III. So I don't know what you'be been looking up but that may be part of the problem - then again maybe not, I don't know. The coin is listed by the auction house that sold it as having been minted between 1601-1637 - https://www.kuenker.de/en/archiv/stueck/177872 And since Chalres II wasn't even born until 1629, then the coin could have been minted under his father Charles I, or him because he assumed the title in 1637 under the regency of his mother the Duchess Maria. So I'm just guessing here but I'm assuming that's why your trying to figure out the coat of arms because you're trying to figure out who the coin was minted under. But it's going to take some doing to figure it all out. I'd start here - https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Charles_II,_Duke_of_Mantua_and_Montferrat
Thank you for your interest. In fact I am interested in the heraldry per se which I find a fascinating aspect of early modern European coinage. With respect, I am confident that this coin was struck by the Charles who ruled Nevers & Rethel from 1637-59. There is considerable confusion about the attribution of these coins because the various Charles had different numbers as Dukes of Nevers & Rethel and as Dukes of Mantua. A further complication is that Charles Gonzaga created the principality of Arches in 1608 with its own numbers. Here is a list of all the Charles NEVERS Charles I (1415-64); also count of Rethel Charles II (1500–1521); also count of Rethel Charles III (1595–1637; also duke of Rethel, Mantua, Montferrat, and Mayenne) Charles IV (1637–1659; also duke of Rethel, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and Rethel in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin) RETHEL Charles I (1415-64); also count of Nevers Charles II (1500–1521); also count of Nevers Charles III (1595–1637; also duke of Nevers, Mantua, Montferrat, and Mayenne) Charles IV (1637–1659; also duke of Nevers, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and Rethel in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin) Charles de Gonzaga inherited the Duchy of Nevers & Rethel in 1595 as Charles III. He made it into the principality of Arches, building the capital of Charleville in 1606. Princes of ARCHES & CHARLEVILLE Charles I (1580-1637; also Charles III of Nevers & Rethel and Carlo I of Mantua) Charles II (1637-1665); also Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel and Carlo II of Mantua) Charles III Ferdinand (1665-1708) In 1627 Charles III of Nevers & Rethel (Charles I of Arches) succeeded his cousin Vincent II as Duke of Mantua as Carlo I. His right to succeed was contested by Emperor Ferdinand II at the urging of Savoy and Spain but he was supported by the Pope & Venice. In the following War of the Succession of Mantua, France intervened in 1629. Charles was finally confirmed as Duke of Mantua in 1631. MANTUA Carlo I (1628- 1637; also Charles III of Nevers & Rethel and Charles I of Arches) Carlo II (1637- 1665; also Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel and Charles II of Arches) Ferdinando Carlo (1665-1708; also Charles III Ferdinand of Arches) The legend on the obverse of the coin I posted starts with Charles' Mantua titles: .CAROLVS.II. D.G. DVX. MANT.MONT.ET. AR (ches). P (rince). I think it is clearly a coin of Carlo II of Mantua (Charles II of Arches), also known as Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel. If this were not complicated enough, there is another way of counting the Charles of Nevers & Rethel which does not include the first Charles (1415-64) who was not a member of the Gonzaga family. Using this count, the counts of Nevers were: Charles I (1415-64); also count of Rethel Charles I Gonzaga (1500–1521); also count of Rethel Charles II Gonzaga (1595–1637; also duke of Rethel, Mantua, Montferrat, and Mayenne) Charles III Gonzaga (1637–1659; also duke of Rethel, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and Rethel in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin) I suspect this is far more than you ever wanted to know about Nevers-Rethel or the Gonzaga family. No wonder some numismatists go slightly mad ! In the meantime I am still no closer to decoding that coat of arms.
Well, digging into it is a lot more work than I care to undertake to be honest with you But I know that in the past when I've done it with other coins what I've found is that the coat of arms of families changed from time to time, what may have been the arms for the father was not necessarily that of the son for example. And since lands were passed or sold from time, the arms could change for any given person. But it sounds like you're trying to pin down the coat of arms so you can pin down exactly when the coin was struck. And for all I know Kunker may well be wrong with their attribution, it would certainly not be the first time that I have seen an auction house misattribute a coin. But even though they do list it as being under Charles II, they also say it was struck under Charles III (dort unter Charles III). And since I've got Davenport's books I can say with certainty that it is Dav. 3841. Now I know that doesn't help much but Davenport does say it was struck under Charles III Gonzaga (1637-1659). In his notes on Nevers and Rethel Davenport does say that Charles I was succeeded by his grandson Charles III who as Duke of Matua sold all his French possessions to the Cardinal and that no coins were struck subsequently. So the time frame you mention seems to be correct based on what Davenport says. But that doesn't help ya with your coat of arms. About all I can say is - good luck with that ! But if you stick with it long enough and sort it out one element at a time (that's the only way I was ever able to do it) I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out
I think Künker's error is easily explained. The cataloguer saw CAROLVS.II. D.G. DVX. on the obverse and, not knowing the intricacies of Gonzaga numbering, wrote down Charles II and assumed Davenport had made a mistake. The coin is a variety of Dav. 3841 but is slightly different to the one in the Davenport photo. The crowned interlaced Cs on the reverse are different.
That's what I was trying to point out, I don't think Kunker or Davenport made a mistake because they both acknowledged the same thing you're saying. That being that the Charles II on the coin actually refers to Charles III Gonzaga. It's stated quite plainly in Kunker's listing and in Davenport's book.
