Is it Cleaned??? Should I return it???

Sorry, but saying a coin is not BU because it has scratches, is incorrect, at least based on the grading scale that is used for uncirculated coins. There are countless coins with scratches that are graded MS60 and higher (some of them considerably higher) in the holders of the most highly respected grading companies. Look at typical MS60-MS62 $10 and $20 Liberty gold coins among the many other types. As just one way in which it can occur, uncirculated coins can acquire scratches from hitting each other in original mint bags.

Based on the above and a number of other posts, I think the seller is being treated extremely unfairly in this thread. While I believe that the coin's color might not be original, I can't tell for certain. We're viewing two sets of images which look very different and it's hard to determine what the coin really looks like.

Also, we don't know that the seller manipulated his images. Often times a small difference in lighting and/or the camera and/or the placement of a coin for imaging can result in marks/flaws showing in some images and not others. It happens to me all the time when I image my coins and it's not intentional. I happen to think the coin looks better in the original poster's images than it does in the Ebay listing.

A shipping charge of $6 doesn't strike me as outrageous either. Furthermore, the seller even stared in his listing how the item would be shipped and what the charge would be.

I don't know who the seller is, and as much as I am eager to slam those who I think deserve it, this seller is not one of them. Sadly, I think that this thread is an example of some misinformation, over reacting and unfair treatment of a stranger by participants on an internet chat forum.

OK, I am now leaving to go put my flame suit on.

 

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Regardless of if the coin was cleaned or not I think it is in pretty nice shape and a grading of BU or there abouts is fair. I don't really mind cleaned coins as long as they were done on a fairly decent amount, not scrubbed or polished. Such coins will tone down in time and if the purchaser is young, plenty of time for that. HOWEVER, I feel the price is very excessive and the postage is also outrageous. Note that even the over priced Red Book has that coin in MS63 for less. It is a real shame that more people do not have coin shows in their area. A coin like that would have a hard time selling for anywhere near that price.

 

The seller didnt say Anything about the coin being BU.. My personal opinion is that the coin is actually EX fine. If he said the coin was uncirculated condition then He would be lying. He's just being sneaky about not giving any information about the coin and displaying misleading pictures.

 

The winning bidder and the under-bidder determined the final price. I don't believe that was the seller's fault - it's not like he went out of his way to hype the coin.

Also, as I posted previously, the shipping charge was plainly noted in the listing. Any bidder is free to and should take the shipping charge into account when calculating his bid. For all we know, the seller could have private insurance. I do not think a $6 shipping charge is contrary to Ebay's stated policy - here is the relevant part:

"Sellers may charge reasonable shipping and handling fees to cover the costs for mailing, packaging, and handling the items they are selling. While eBay will not prescribe exactly what a seller may or may not charge, eBay will rely on member reports and its own discretion to determine whether or not a seller’s shipping, handling, packaging, and/or insurance charges are excessive. Shipping and handling fees may not be listed as a percentage of the final sale price.
Sellers who want to be sure they are in compliance with this policy may charge actual shipping costs plus actual packaging materials cost (or less).
In addition to the final listing price, sellers are permitted to charge:
Actual Shipping cost: This is the actual cost (i.e. postage) for shipping the item.
Handling Fee: Actual packaging materials costs may be charged. A handling fee in addition to actual shipping cost may be charged if it is not excessive."


Edited to add:

"The seller didnt say Anything about the coin being BU.. My personal opinion is that the coin is actually EX fine. If he said the coin was uncirculated condition then He would be lying. He's just being sneaky about not giving any information about the coin and displaying misleading pictures."

The coin easily looks better than XF and it might even be uncirculated.

 

If your this skeptical regarding this coin. By all means send it back, your never going to be happy with it. Its really hard to tell from the photos if it in fact has been cleaned, at least to my untrained 50 year old eyes. I dont see anything that is really standing out and as somebody else stated, its really tough to tell from pictures the luster, color etc. especially on copper.


Send it back, your far to skeptical on it.

As for shipping, I dont think that 6 buck is out of line if it had delivery confirmation

 

I'd say send it back. I'll say the auction photos were not exactly honest, but that is all I can find wrong with the auction reall. JMO, compared to some other auctions, $6 isn't really that outragious, once you figure in $1.65 insurance, envelope, etc. Did he send it priority at all DJP? I can't really tell from the pics, but I would say it is atleast an AU-55, old cleaning possibly. But like said, if you are real uneasy about it, then I'd say return it. :thumb:

Phoenix

 

Hmm - I think Mark is correct. See this post by me about an 1852 large cent. There are two sets of pictures the first makes the pin scratch look bad, then second set show the 1852 closer to what it really looks like. All I did was change the angle of the light. Also here is a heritage auction for a 1810 CBH - looks scratched to me. As for the pictures I can not say which is correct, but have to go with the OP comments. In this case I would only return it if you are unhappy with the coin in hand. I can see what everyone is talking about, but I am not sure what is really the problem. In this case I would take it to my local dealer for an opinion. This is one of the problems of buying with pictures only.

I do think shipping and insurance was a little high, but I could live with it. If you decide to return it - check with the seller first, but be polite and professional.

 

As noted if your so skeptical about this coin, get rid of it. You'll spend way to much time of your life pondering if you should have kept it. Send it back.

 

Although coin grading is very subjective there are parameters one must use to grade a coin. I am far from an expert grader such as yourself. But I differentiate between bag marks and scratches caused by rubbing or cleaning.

BU (Brilliant Uncirculated) to me means 1) the coin is uncirculated and 2) the coin has good eye appeal and luster. What grade constitutes BU? I don't know but to me it certainly is not MS-60 or MS-61, and maybe not MS-62. I would probably have to say BU is about MS-63 to MS-64. (MS-65 and up would be Choice BU.)

The coin in question does appear to be uncirculated. However, it does not have good luster and there are numerous hairline scratches. Without good luster it is not "brilliant". And the scratches lower the grade substantially. (Most of the Big Four grading services won't slab a cleaned or scratched coin.)

So I have a hard time calling this scratched/cleaned Lincoln 'BU'.

 

Seller did not call this coin BU at all, buyer did. Seller only used misleading pictures to make it appear better than it is. The bids realized show this to be true when compared to actual coin received. Coin should have sold for much less as a cleaned AU/UNC. $5.00 range is more accurate.
Only ANACS would slab this cleaned coin, ICG, PCGS and NGC would bodybag it for the cleaning.

Item descriptions do not have to be used, and in this case were not. Seller stated USE PICTURES to make your bids, then proceeded to use juiced pics.

Also note that $6.00 is heavily inflated shipping price for an envelope. I have sold 1000+ coins on Ebay and know what is a fair shipping price range is, $6.00 is not in that range. Actual postage and a $1 or 2 handleing charge is reasonable. If this were a 1931-S rather than a 1929-S $6.00 would be in order to cover the added insurance and a new bubble mailer perhaps, along with sig confirmation if seller so chooses. $4.00 extra is an undeclared restocking fee if item is returned so to speak.

 

Hobo, I believe that most people consider BU to represent low grade unc. - in the MS60-62 range. Typically/generally when adjectives are used as a substitute for numerical grades, "choice" refers to MS63 (and maybe MS64), while "gem" refers to MS65 (and maybe MS66) and "superb" refers to MS67.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "cleaned coin" but if by chance you mean dipped, there are more than you could imagine graded by the "big four". Likewise, they have graded countless (uncirculated) coins with various sizes and degrees of scratches on them.

 

Yea, Ive just never returned a coin before. Theres been coins I wasnt very happy with but just knew better to buy from that seller again. And it was my mistake when I said the seller called the coin BU and full red, I had another auction is was watching mixed up. But the most of what this was, ws I didnt like the coin once I got it, it dosent make the grade I am looking for for my set, and it would eventually get upgraded in the long run. I dont see the point in buying a coin that I would have to upgrade at a later point in time. And well, to be honest, I just cant afford to waste money on a coin that wont work for my set. But Ive always been uneasy about asking to return a coin. I wanted opinions as to if the coin was cleaned or if I was looking at polished dies. I wanted to make sure that people agreed with my assumtion before i asked to return the coin.

 

I don't think the pics were juiced.
I believe the seller took pics under a high output halogen light and DJ's are under fluorescent lighting.
Note that on the auction there is a reflection coming off of the 2x2, in DJ's there is none.
Also, as mentioned, the angle is slightly different.
That is where your extreme color difference is coming from.
What light were you using, DJ ?

 

I have a flourescent lamp. Its one of those big round lightbulbs with a magnifying glass in the middle. Its great for taking pics of coins, I can swing the light to whichever angle I want and can adjust the amount of light that hits the coin. And it really helps to be able to control the amount of light that reflects off the coin.

 

I'll backtrack and eat a bit of crow here. Seller has a stellar history and maybe the pics/lights thingy, but still, you should make every effort to show the coin as it will show in hand if your telling folks to bid by picture.