Slabbed ancients.....yay or nay?

Here's a direct copy of ANACS' guarantee:



Note especially the second paragraph language:

"If the ... grade is lower... ANACS agrees, at its discretion, to either purchase the coin from the owner at fair market value or pay the owner of the coin the difference between the coins' [sic] fair market value at the re-examination grade and the fair market value at the grade originally assigned by ANACS."

This is NOT a guarantee of authenticity -- it's a guarantee of grade. As far as I can determine, ANACS provides no explicit guarantee of an ancient coin's authenticity, nor is there an implicit guarantee either.

So what happens if ANACS authenticates your ancient coin and it turns out to be counterfeit? Do you get paid the fair market value of the coin, which is $0.00 since it's a counterfeit?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but this guarantee is worth exactly $0.00 in the case of authenticating ancient coins.

 

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Thank you for researching this @IdesOfMarch01 !

 

I know and respect the entire NGC ancient staff (both of them) and would value their opinions although I really would like to know what happened on that Carisius. Do we have any idea who actually does the work on ANACS ancients? Should I have any reason to believe their opinion is better than my own? I know there are a thousand people more capable than I am but I do not know how many of them work for a TPG ancients operation.

 

Mr. Doug Smith, if you were the ANACS Ancient Coin Authenticator—I don't think any of us would hesitate to join ANACS and submit our coins.

 

In a recent trip to NYC I was excited to learn that the Stacks Coin shop was next to Central Park. We took a detour to visit the shop so I could check out the ancient coins.

They had two small display cases of ancients, but they were all slabbed. There was a Nero tet that I would normally see for approximately $80 online given the condition, but Stacks wanted close to $200. I’m relatively new to ancients, but I realize the cost of the slab was driving some of that.

I asked the clerk if I could see some ungraded ancients and he said that they don’t have any. “Well, that’s disappointing” thanked him for his time and headed out.

Cost is a big factor for me. I don’t want to pay the inflated cost for the slab among the other reasons already listed in this thread.

Now if I’m buying coins $1000+ then that cost becomes a little more understandable but not for the collector grade entry level stuff I enjoy.

 

Great to see you post @Johnnie Black ! You should take the plunge. Dive in and buy a few ancients and post them on the forum. I can send you a list of great and trustworthy dealers if you like.

Some coin shops are official NGC authorized dealers. The one in New York that you visited may have been one of them. That would explain why there were no non-graded coins available.

 

My general rule is if the coin was minted with a screw press or later, it goes in a slab. If its production predates the screw press, it stays raw.

 

You would be making a great mistake to do so. I am one of ten thousand people who have some reasonable experience in some limited areas of ancient coinage. I have not anything approaching the level of general experience that would be needed to fill such a position. For example, in my life I have touched about half a dozen aurei the most recent of which was about twenty years ago. I don't collect them; I don't ask dealers at shows to let me play in their stock. In my life, I have held one dekadrachm of Athens which I was told at the time and now have no reason to doubt was authentic. Why would anyone ask the opinion of such an amateur let alone pay for it?

Unlike Barry Murphy who recently showed us a million dollars with of loose change from his desk, my experience is limited to the coins I collect --- the cheap stuff. Considering the cost to slab coins is not terribly much less than the average cost of the coins in my collection, I might be safer to ask about trashy denarii of Septimius Severus than, lets say, those of Didius Julianus.

There is another thing that I don't recall seeing mentioned here is what I am sure is a regular occurrence at any TPG. People might be more likely to submit coins they doubt or coins with problems they hope to sneak through and get certified. Am I prepared to sniff out the coins with Bond-o surfaces and tooling and make a call between over cleaned and lightly tooled? Have I memorized every fake posted online like medical students memorize body parts? Do I know the style of the known master forgers well enough that I might sense their next handiwork? I can have an opinion on such things and can walk away from coins about which I had even a slight doubt not worried that I was erring on the side of caution. You can't do this too often when you are in the business. People are aying yo to be right. What is an acceptable level of error by an authenticator of ancient coins? 1% would make you a laughing stock. .01%? That would be one in ten thousand or a mistake every day or two. That would result in a parade of Coin Talk posts entitled "Look what they did now." One in a million? I do not know what I think let alone what you should think. I would love to know how often two graders, both experts in their field, bump heads and disagree on a coin. There will always be room for opinions and changing your opinions when required. Ask the people at the British Museum when that second Domitianus II turned up. "I'm glad we didn't throw the first one in the rubbish bin."

I am comfortable with the situation of being less than 100% sure of half a dozen of the coins in my collection. That is one in 500 or so so dangerously close to what I termed 'laughing stock' . If I were selling those coins, I would not offer them to just anyone but only people who knew enough to understand the potential problem. I suggest those of you who aspire being the next grader hired by NGC (or even ANACS???) be serious and ask where you plan to get the required background training. I know I am not on the list (short or long) of people under consideration. We each do the best we can and that is all we can do.

I agree. Buy a few, post a few and wonder if the coins will receive wide acceptance here. Perhaps someone here will say you need to change your name to 'Johnnie Red' or start buying better coins.

 

What I really meant by the comment was that I would trust you, to opinionate my ancient coins, particularly Roman—any that may have come from an unknown dealer for example. If you, Mr. Doug Smith, were to thoroughly examine (in hand, appearance, and weight etc.) my Vespasian denarius—from an unknown dealer—and tell me it looked authentic—then your opinion would be enough for me to believe in it's authenticity. With your years of experience you have both knowledge and intuitive skills (skills which transcend description and can only be acquired through years of hands on ancient coin collecting). You are an elder statesman.

 

Welcome to the Ancients Forum @Jaelus ! That's a good straight-forward rule to follow.

 

Is the Barry Murphy thats on this forum a NGC ancients grader?

 

Yes. He's been in the business of ancient coins a long time and a couple of years ago joined David Vagi, another respected ancient numismatist. Together they are the NGC Ancients department (the graders; I hope they have underlings to do the administrative grunt work ).

It is unfortunate that so many of us are on the other side of the slabbing issue but I doubt any of us question their knowledge and experience.

 

I have absolutely no idea if this video is an accurate record of David Vagi actually at work but it suggests that TIF is right that there are underlings involved in the admin parts like labeling and stacking in order. We see the grader examining the coins in good light and typing in his grades on the keyboard. This is the only way one person could grade so many coins. Obviously someone else inserts coins and seals the slabs - grunt work.

 

I wonder if the 'grunts' are responsible for the slabbed coins with only an overall grade and missing one for strike or surface?

 

I agree, David! As much as I love giving away these slabbed "Widow's Mites", I hope the top Ancient Coin Numismatists are NOT having to make them ALL day.

 

My objection to slabs isn't for aesthetic reasons. If slabs could be opened and snapped shut you wouldn't see most ancient collectors up in arms over them. But then again, that would take away their raison d'être and the appeal they have for newbies and modern collectors.

 

@Deacon Ray Wow those pics of those slabbed widows mites does have a nice uniform look to it haha.

I'm slowly piecing all the info together and learning from all of you!

 

Great to have you aboard, @Mkman123 !