Are there any known ancient coins with ...

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I think the oldest known provenance is this collection.. Identified by the silver eagle that they counter-marked on the coins..


from CNG (not my coin)
"From the Gonzaga/Este Collection
271, Lot: 78. Estimate $1000.
Sold for $2750. This amount does not include the buyer’s fee.

Vespasian. AD 69-79. Æ Quadrans (15mm, 2.19 g, 3h). Rome mint. Struck AD 77-78. IMP VESP AVG COS VIII, winged caduceus between crossed cornucopias / S C within laurel wreath; below SC, inlaid silver Gonzaga countermark in the form of an eagle in an oval field . RIC II 1017; BMCRE 741; BN 911. VF, dark green-brown patina. An important and historical collectible.

Property of Princeton Economics acquired by Martin Armstrong. Purchased privately from Classical Numismatic Group; Fürsten d'Este Collection.

The silver eagle collector’s mark found on the obverse of this and a number of other Roman imperial coins has generated much speculation regarding its owner. Originating with Cavedoni (Atti e Memorie Accademia di Scienze, Lettere, ed Arti [1825]), who based his assumptions on an earlier statement of Maffei and the vague assertion of Eckhel, this mark was assigned to the d'Este family, a wealthy and powerful Renaissance family from the Emilia-Romana region of Italy, whose badge included an eagle. Such an attribution contradicted earlier numismatists, including Spanheim (Dissertationes de praestantia et usu Numismatum antiquorum [1717]), who asserted it was the mark of the Gonzagas, the rulers of Mantua, a city with an important ancient Roman connection (it had been the poet Vergil's birthplace). In 1433, the Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund granted Gian Francesco Gonzaga (1395-1444), the first Marquis, with the privilege of new coat-of-arms, which contained an imperial eagle badge. This device was included on the town's silver coinage for the next two centuries.

Simonetta and Riva (QT VIII [1979]) revisited the controversy, concluding the mark was that of the Gonzaga family. Such a mark served to inventory the piece to their collection, which, from the extant inventory, included a number of important Roman coins. Beginning in 1628, these coins were dispersed in order to fund the family's political and territorial ambitions.

In their follow-up article (QT XII [1983]), Simonetta and Riva presented a heretofore unknown 1653-1654 French narrative (Voyage d'Italie curieux et nouveau [Lyons, 1681]), as further evidence of the Gonzaga connection. Writing of his visit to Mantua, the author, Jean Huguetan, speaks of the coin collection having already been dispersed; these coins, however, can be recognized "by a small eagle with which they have been stamped (à une petite aigle dont on les avoit marquées). This statement supports Spanheim's later one regarding similar coins (ex insculpta in iis, Gonzagarum insigni, Aquila) in the possession of the d'Este dukes of Modena. While the d'Este had since married into the Gonzaga and had acquired specimens in early dispersal of the Mantuan collection, they have no specific association with this collector’s mark."

 

Hard to imagine any such ancient coin "above the ground all the way" provenances exist but if they did, wouldn't that be amazing!!

 

some were probably "above ground" in some sense if they were found in a ancient building/cave etc.. but not in a coin collection.

 

This has been discussed at FORVM. As I recall, there are no examples of coins that did not come from the ground. Silver and gold have until modern times mostly been melted. Bronze weren’t valued enough to survive the centuries. Another point, how would you even know. The oldest line drawings are from the renaissance and these are difficult to match to modern coins.

 

In the Holy Land coins have been found "above ground" in lamps or bowls snuck inside the walls of homes, so theoretically have never been buried. As far as coins being in collections since ancient times, that's possible!

 

There are also coins from the collection of Queen Christina of Sweden. Many of these form the base of the Vatican's coin collection. Again, not ancient, but one of the oldest and most prestigious pedigrees. Like the gonzaga coins they have their own counterstamp.

 

Here’s one from queen Christina’s collection. https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=231824

 

The phrase 'above ground' misses the point. The real distinction is whether coins have at some point been 'lost'. As far as I am aware, every ancient coin was lost and ended up either in the ground, under a wall, etc... I expect there are a very few coins that can be traced to the early renaissance (e.g., 14th century), but further than that while not unimaginable is doubtful.

 

The pedigree undoubtedly helped it.

 

I underbid this coin to the infamous Clio, primarily interested in it for the pedigree. I later learned his max was faaarrrr over mine which lessened the blow.

 

There are actually some very old collections still in Europe that have provenance back hundreds of years that have been kept in 'the family'. I knew one dealer who knew one such family personally, their collection provenanced back 1,000 years. I have no idea if that was true (that dealer has since passed away and I dont recall the name of the family). I have no doubt there are many out there. The Vatican has collections going back to antiquity but like many other such collections much of it is not cataloged and mostly hidden away from prying eyes.

 

It's an interesting question. Coins that have been above-ground in a living-person's possession since antiquity? Sure, that must be true for many coins. I suspect your typical Syracusian Dekadrachm didn't ever get buried in a hoard or dropped in the marketplace.

Provenanced back to antiquity? Anything is possible, but I would say no, not provenanced as most would think of it. Secular writings before the 15th century are very scare. And how would one credibly assert provenance without written records? Even the Capitoline and Vatican museums only date back to the 15th century. If you place the end of antiquity at 476 AD, that means there is almost certainly a 1000 year gap in the record for anything in their (or any other museum's) collection.

No one can trace their family tree earlier than about Charlemagne or William the Conqueror. There just were no written records. A coin could have been handed down from father to son for 2000 years, but there is no way to prove it.

At least for Greece and Rome. For other cultures like China, I have no idea.

 

This seems unlikely. Coins were routinely melted and restruck, so you would have to rely on sentimentality. A dekadrachm has a lot of value and 2000 years of war, famines, and other crises provide a lot of incentive to convert that dekadrachm to something useable. In Burton Berry’s biography, he speaks of new found hoards being melted almost as fast as they found. I am not saying it’s impossible for a silver coin to survive in possession for 2000 years, just extremely unlikely.

 

Very interesting and contradicting observation, which inevitably leads to my, Petavius, treatise "Opus de doctrina temporum" published in 1672.

The contradition is: you claim there is a gap in records of about 1000 years (which is most probably true), but still you quote the date of 476AD. Not like "end of 5th century", or scientificatlly 475 +/- 50 years, but really precisely 476!
Who was keeping and maintaning THIS reccord (476AD) for all this time? Definitly the people did not use our modern calendar in ancient times, saying nothing about the Dark Ages.
So the simple question: where did you get the number 476? Can you prove it and track it down?
(Sorry for possible offtopic).

 

There is a weird story of a gold medallion of Valentinian I: "A letter from the Count du Chastel, dated June 2, 1896, referring to the famous Montagu Collection sold in 1896 gives us the very interesting information that this gold medallion had formerly belonged to the grandfather of the present Count du Chastel. The writer states that the medallion was stolen from his grandfather in his chéteau at the time of the occupation of Belgium by foreign troops in 1794. This unique medallion had disappeared from view, which was a great loss especially as it had never been published. Later on, it appeared in the English catalogue of the Montagu Collection, lot No. 914, and was acquired by the present Count du Chastel, with whose collection it passed into the National Collection of Brussels."

He also claimed to have had it in his family DIRECTLY from the emperor himself. His genealogy can at least be traced to the 1300´s, but his coat of arms seems to have relation to the founding of a city (can´t remember the name), which was founded by Valentinian I.

http://numismatics.org/digitallibrary/ark:/53695/nnan97968/pdf

 

Here's my VERY worn Nerva sestertius with the eagle collector's mark. I also purchased years ago 4 equally worn Roman coins that instead of being in an envelope, were wrapped in paper that had been folded over each coin. When opened, on the paper can be read in German and Latin the coin's description. Judging from the handwriting, I would place them at the late 18th-early 19th century. While none of these coins would be desirable in today's "condition important" market, they are precious for their links to past owners.