need help fast...

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by ziggy9, May 20, 2018.

  1. ziggy9

    ziggy9 *NEC SPERNO NEC TIMEO*

    Hi Gang,
    Normally I would ytake my time and research these myself but I just got the lot and the boss needs an idea of pricing by tomorrow when the client is coming back to the shop. If the price is right on some of these I will be buying them in the end. I had to block out part of the labels to protect the client privacy as he has labels there that might identify him. I will fill in the info from that area. Pictures were fast and not perfect, any color issues are in the photos not the coins


    CH VF*, strike 5/5, surface 5/5
    alex1-horz.jpg


    CH VF, strike 4/5, surface 2/5 cleo1-horz.jpg


    F, strike 5/5, surface 2/5 con1-horz.jpg

    XF, strike 5/5, surface3/5 julianii1-horz.jpg


    VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5 pius1-horz.jpg


    this one body bagged as tooled sevobv-horz.jpg


    CH VF, strike 4/5, surface 2/5 sheckel1-horz.jpg


    CH VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5 tiberius1-horz.jpg


    VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5
    titus1-horz.jpg

    CH XF, strike 5/5, surface 2/5 trajan1-horz.jpg

    two more to follow....
     
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  3. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    What I suggest you do is go to various ancient coin auction databases and search for similar coins. The most helpful require a paid subscription, which your boss -- if s/he is serious about dealing in ancient coins -- probably has. These are:

    acsearchinfo
    coin archives
    CNG's auction archives

    Wildwinds has some pricing data, too, but it's not likely to be current.

    Take into account that there is a 15-18% buyer's commission, shipping, and currency exchange fees added on to the hammer price. A coin with a 100 € hammer price in a German auction will probably cost the US buyer $150 when all is said and done.

    To get an idea of what coins are selling for at retail, I suggest you go to V-Coins and search there.

    Keep in mind, too, that the majority of ancient coin collectors will crack the coins out of the slab and will not pay a premium for the slab. It'll go in the recycle bin or trash can.

    For example, you'll notice this example (higher grade but with rough surfaces and quite possibly tooled) of the posthumous sestertius of Antoninus Pius failed to sell at Agora's auction in 2015 with an estimate of $300 but sold for a hammer price of $150 on an estimate of $250 in 2016. Several other examples--quite comparable to the one you are pricing are listed at acsearchinfo. This one, for example, brought 150 € on a single maximum bid of 160 €, but in 2003. There is a single, less desirable, example for 100 € retail at V-coins. Whether it actually will sell at that price is anybody's guess. Taking into account all this information, you should be able to arrive at a reasonable estimate of market value.

    Using these resources, I'm quite confident that you will be able to do the job for which you get paid and get in bed by 11:00 tonight. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
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  4. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

  5. ziggy9

    ziggy9 *NEC SPERNO NEC TIMEO*

    I agree with what you are saying Roman collector but my boss doesn't normally sell ancients, he lets me look at them when they come in 9not often) and I do the research on my own time (not paid) and if we can reach a price I usually buy them. These are of better quality than normally come into the shop. I still have two more runs this evening before my teens are back in the house about 10:00. Like I said I would normally do just what you said except the time constraints.
     
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  6. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    > My response was not displaying, so I removed the attachments.
    > You have to do some work to figure out which estimate goes with which coin.
    > My estimates based on years of surfing the internet and drinking a lot of wheat beers. :)
    > These are way off the cuff. :)

    CH VF*, strike 5/5, surface 5/5

    > $250 (a common coin in decent shape)

    CH VF, strike 4/5, surface 2/5

    > $150 (a common coin in less than average shape)

    F, strike 5/5, surface 2/5

    > $300 (A common gold coin with a lot more wear than usual)

    XF, strike 5/5, surface3/5

    > $150 (A common coin but in decent shape)

    VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5

    > $100 (A-Pi Sestertius are very common, in average condition)

    this one body bagged as tooled

    > $20 (Some may find it interesting as a tooled example)

    CH VF, strike 4/5, surface 2/5

    > $100 (An interesting ancient forgery in decayed shape)

    CH VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5

    > $200 (A common coin in good condition but not particularly attractive)

    VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5

    > $200 (An interesting type in decent condition)

    CH XF, strike 5/5, surface 2/5

    > $300 (The pick of the group in my opinion, I don't see the 2/5 surfaces)
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  7. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    Take my valuations with a grain of salt, if some of those are hidden rarities, then I am probably way off. I am shooting for Agora Auctions level of prices, which is where I think most of these borderline low end coins would end up.

    I offer these in the spirit of discussion more than anything else.

    :)

    John
     
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  8. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Well-Known Member

    The "2/5" surfaces on a few of these coins indicate that they probably have had some work done on them and are therefore going to be more challenging to price and sell.

    I have a "back of the envelope" price in mind for the group but would rather lead a horse to water, so to speak. If you have specific questions, I think we'd all be happy to help.
     
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  9. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    I understand all the self-help advice and that would typically be my gut reaction as well. However, we have a long time CT member who has never asked for help in this manner before that I am aware of so I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and help him in as much as I am able.

    After all the ancients board does have a reputation for being helpful, courteous and friendly to uphold...

    Here is my unresearched estimates based on what I can remember seeing from auctions / dealers / Vcoins in the past.


    CH VF*, strike 5/5, surface 5/5
    IMG_5129.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $300


    CH VF, strike 4/5, surface 2/5
    IMG_5130.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $200


    F, strike 5/5, surface 2/5
    IMG_5131.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $225


    XF, strike 5/5, surface3/5
    IMG_5132.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $300
    I really like this type. An interesting coin.


    VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5
    IMG_5133.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $150


    this one body bagged as tooled
    IMG_5134.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $0
    I wouldn't buy this one


    CH VF, strike 4/5, surface 2/5
    IMG_5135.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $80


    CH VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5
    IMG_5136.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $150


    VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5
    IMG_5137.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $80


    CH XF, strike 5/5, surface 2/5
    IMG_5138.JPG
    My Guesstimate: $250
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  10. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    I agree with Curtismo, and was also trying to help Ziggy score a few coins by quoting reasonable prices, and not big-lie-high-prices valuations.

    :)
     
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  11. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Well-Known Member

    Definitely fair - I didn't realize he was a long term member. Here are my gut-feel prices, looking at it from what they'd need as a dealer to buy at wholesale.

    View attachment 778328
    $250 - nice coin, my favorite of the bunch

    CH VF, strike 4/5, surface 2/5
    View attachment 778329
    $100 (the 2/5 is worrisome)

    F, strike 5/5, surface 2/5
    View attachment 778330
    $100 (2/5 with "edge marks" in the slab description, meaning there is probably another problem on the coin; maybe it's ex-jewelry, considering the wear)

    XF, strike 5/5, surface3/5
    View attachment 778331
    $100 - nice coin, but we're talking dealer buy prices (so maybe $150 retail)

    VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5
    View attachment 778332
    $100 - wholesome but low-grade

    View attachment 778333
    $20 if genuine.

    CH VF, strike 4/5, surface 2/5
    View attachment 778334
    $50 - numismatically super interesting, with it being plated. However, it might be challenging to find a buyer who wants it. If you can find the right buyer, maybe $200.

    CH VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5
    View attachment 778335
    $100 - nice and wholesome

    VF, strike 5/5, surface 4/5
    View attachment 778336
    $50 - well-centered and wholesome

    CH XF, strike 5/5, surface 2/5
    View attachment 778337
    $100 - the 2/5 is worrisome here as well, and if anything else is listed on the right (blocked out, with smoothing listed on the left). It's tough to judge from these pictures.

    So, roughly $1K all-in. It'll take some time to find the right buyers for these as many dealers have similar coins in their inventories but this is just my $0.02. Hope it helps!
     
  12. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    I've always enjoyed threads about value. They can be quite entertaining. But I will give my opinion as a dealer, and I think they will be a bit closer to reality. I'll follow @Curtisimo here as I feel he's been very close:

    Alexander: $350. Its a really nice example, well centered, struck, excellent style, etc.

    Ptolemy: $150. I might be a bit low on this as they have increased in popularity in recent years but this example has some nasty corrosion on the obverse which will ding the value quite a bit. Perhaps even lower than $150.

    Constantius: $250. Not a great example, but anything gold sells well these days.

    Julian. $150. Maybe its just the photo, but it doesnt look anything special.

    Pius. Easily $150-200.

    Septimius. Well, I dont like tooled coins either, but you guys are a bit harsh on it! It still has value, and its value would entirely depend on venue being sold. In Europe this would still fetch about $300. Here, probably still $200. But it does look a bit like its cast, doesnt it? Then again, why tool a cast fake?

    Tyre. Fouree's have never held much in my eye, but $75 to $100.

    Tiberius. $200.

    Titus. $100 - 125.

    Trajan. $250 - 300.

    I think these estimates are realistic, but keep in mind that is what I could sell them for and I specialize in ancients. Your boss might get much more or much less for them. Who knows? The market is fickle.
     
  13. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Good point. I was pricing considering what a collector might pay "all in". If considering from a dealer's perspective your prices make more sense.

    Perhaps multiply all my estimes by 0.6 for my best guess dealer price.
     
  14. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Perhaps I misunderstood? I though the OP was asking us to tell him what he should tell his boss to pay for the lot. Ziggy, are you looking to buy these to keep for your own collection?
     
  15. ziggy9

    ziggy9 *NEC SPERNO NEC TIMEO*

    Hi Tif,
    that was part of the consideration.
    As for everyone,
    thank you for your input, due to the large difference in what I was quoted her and what the owner ended up wanting we decided to just pass on the coins rather than risk insulting him with our offer. He was expecting more than twice the highest estimate here.
     
  16. arnoldoe

    arnoldoe Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]


    Then you could then melt it down and sell the gold for $175:angelic:
     
  17. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    The problem with buying slabbed ancients with inflated prices...

    : - (
     
  18. Svarog

    Svarog Well-Known Member

    100% agree with @ Ken Dorney on pricing: especially on Tiberius, Titus, Alexander
     
  19. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I don't see nearly as many coins, slabbed or otherwise, compared to most of you high end dealers and collectors but I have noted that surface 2/5 is NGC speak for minor surface scratches that many of us would not notice. I suspect it results in many coins being removed from slabs since the buyer will not notice the problem. They seem particularly hard on graffiti. On the other hand, they allow rough surfaces with texture that bothers me a great deal more and that shows easily trough the plastic at a 3/5 level. I do not know how one could design a system that would cover the span of what exists in just five levels. I have many coins that I would like to know the grade opinion by their system but curiosity does not cause me to pay $50 (postage included) to grade a coin not worth $50.

    In 1997, I posted my grading pages declaring two considerations beyond the VF and friends wear grades. These were 'Conditions of Manufacture' which is more or less strike and 'Conditions of Preservation' which is more or less surface.
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/grade2.html
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/grade3.html

    At that time, I toyed with the idea of assigning numbers to each of these but thought 0-9 was proper rather than 1-5. Rather than comparing apples and oranges, I thought it better to assign specific value judgments like 9=attractive, even, smooth patina/tone or 2=damage affecting important parts of the coin making the coin ugly. I reserved grade level 0 for coins that could not be graded without a paragraph. Such coins are common.

    In 1997, it struck me that there was no way that the general population would every agree on a system that complicated so I dropped the idea of the numbers and hoped just to get people to consider the fact that there is more to grading ancients than you can cover with VF and friends. I also had lurking in the back of my mind that this idea was not original but I could not find the reference where I saw someone suggest it in some article in some magazine from the past. Does anyone recall a suggestion of this nature by someone (guessing here, Paul Rynearson???) from the 80's, perhaps?

    I can only comment on the values you have already received on one coin.
    I have a lot of fourrees. I have bought very few in the last 20 years because most respectable dealers would not touch the things in the 90's so they were cheap. There was a story about a guy that saw three EID MAR fourrees in a drawer at a big name dealer because they would not sell them. Today, our non-fourree people seem to think they are worth more than I do. Lets just say I'm never the right buyer. $50 is plenty. There is a difference between what you can sell something for if you find the right buyer and what you should. How much do you take off for smoothing, tooling, being fourree or just plain old modern fake? Opinions differ.

    These days my best fourree would be discounted as much for being worn to fine as for being plated. ex. Charles H. Wolfe
    ra8830bb0422.jpg
     
  20. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    The Titus should retail $150 to $200. It's one of the more desirable types of the pulvinar series. I cannot comment on the other coins.
     
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  21. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    That's because the seller didn't realize that in the ancient collecting community the slabs mean nothing and don't garner a premium. He expected to be paid for plastic that will end up in the recycle bin or the trashcan.
     
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