Prices of Byzantine copper

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Valentinian, May 18, 2018.

  1. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    As an observation, yesterday I took the time (a lot of it) to look at the 5500 "Byzantine" hits on US eBay. The vast majority will never sell because their opening levels are far too high. Over time, the overpriced copper coins dominate for at least these reasons.
    1) Sellers with a supply of Byzantine copper coins may want to make them look more valuable than they are and are happy to have lots of high-priced comparable coins, so they list them at high prices.
    2) Any ignorant seller wanted to sell a Byzantine coin on eBay can look around and see high-priced comparable coins, so may think that's what they are worth and list his coins that way.
    Most importantly, by far:
    3) eBay fees are based on coins sold, not coins listed. So, if there ever is a genuine auction of a well-priced copper Byzantine coin, it sells and is no longer listed. On the other hand, overpriced coins don't sell, are relisted, and stay offered on eBay forever. Still more high-priced coins are continually added whereas well-priced coins disappear in at most 10 days. Even if well-priced coins are replaced by others, they become a smaller fraction of the total number of Byzantine coins. This has been going on so long that well-priced Byzantine copper coins are now a very small fraction of Byzantine copper coins on eBay.
    4) Most Byzantine copper coins are not worth much and sellers make little profit for the same overhead of selling a $300 coin, so the major fixed-price dealers need to mark them up a lot, or choose not to sell them at all.

    Some of the major dealers put 10 or 20 or 50 Byzantine copper coins (even fairly good ones from collections) in a individual large lots. The per-coin price is then a small fraction of their individual prices. Of course, wholesale should be, and is, less than retail. For Byzantine copper, which is low-value to begin with, the difference on eBay is huge.

    I solicit your comments on Byzantine copper coins and their prices.
     
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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I don't see this as unique to Byzantine but is the current situation with all low priced coins. It is made worse by the attitude of many beginning collectors who prefer to skip the apprentice phase of collecting where they might buy coins that were not perfect and start their 12 Caesars collection with Otho and Caligula. The demand for coins that thrilled me when I was in High School has fallen off.

    The best place to buy low end Byzantine or others is from another collector who has surplus. We used to do this at coin clubs. We did this on eBay back when eBay was a venue for collectors rather than wannabe dealers who use the business model that it is easier to sell one coin for a ridiculous price than it is to make a dollar or two on each of a thousand sales. Unfortunately, postage has ended the day of being able to sell really cheap coins (beginner grade) whose value was mostly educational rather than being resalable for immediate profit. I'm not sure there is an answer today. We can give school groups piles of junk coins and hope that one or two of these seeds will sprout into a collector to replace us. That may be a dream more than a reality.
     
  4. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    Zlobin is the worst offender of all and eBay can be a pit of despair when browsing Byzantine coins. To look through that many would take me at least 2 hours, but I generally only look at the images for what I want. I agree that well-priced coins go quick, as they should. Perhaps filtering by auction only and lowest first will show the coins being offered at a low reserve of say $1. I find almost all coins offered at a $1 starting bid are usually sold, of course you have to exclude the un-id'able, fake, or worn slugs. So in general the same holds true for any ancient offered on eBay. Just my two nummi.
     
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  5. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    I agree with Doug. This whole issue applies to just about anything of value, not just Byzantine coins. But at some point someone really is paying those prices somewhere. There are many auctions out there with groups of such coins, from a few to hundreds in a lot. I am always shaking my head wondering who is buying them and where do they go? I cant pay over $10 each for crummy coins only to try and resell for $11 if I am lucky. Most would only sell for $5 and very slowly at that (often years). You can search through many auctions and see what I am talking about.

    And, along the same topic, has anyone noticed that some auction houses get more for group lots per coin than the exact same coins individually in the same auction? It's a strange world.
     
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  6. BenSi

    BenSi Well-Known Member

    I am afraid some do sell, it has to do more with coins being sold out of category to uneducated buyers. However, I have purchased some very underpriced coins from uneducated sellers so it works both ways.
    We have several sellers now listing coins and the prices they are asking are silly high , however if you express knowledge, they seem to negotiate. It has worked for me numerous times.
    As regards to the prices on Byzantine copper, it has been going up in the last decade, I started my collection of 12th century minor coinage for only a few dollars per coin, some of those now sell for hundreds.
    My biggest annoyance with Ebay now is the large amount of fake coins that are being sold. I never thought I would see fake tetartera but it is becoming commonplace now.
     
  7. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    A sales method I have not seen for quite a while was once more common at shows. The seller would have a bag of similar coins, lets say denarii of the third century. They were offered at, lets say, $20 each you pick or five for $75 if you took what he pulled from the bag without looking. There was no guarantee or refund if you did not like the blind picks. Usually there was also a lower price each if you took all that were left in the bag. I usually took the high price option and selected coins that appealed to me. A beginner who had no coins of that description might do better taking the five. Today, would there be any demand for blindly picked ancients? Would you be interested in coins knowing that the bag had a lot of Gordians, a few Philips and two or three women from that era mostly in VF or better but no real dogs?

    eBay had a sales option 20 years ago called Dutch Auction. The seller would show a pile of coins, lets say 35. Bidders would say, 'I'll take 3 at $20' or 'I'll take one at $10'. After the sale, the bids would be examined and the most expensive would be pulled at random by the seller (you had to trust him). When it got down to coin 35 - last one in the group, the price to everyone was set by the bid on that last coin. People who bid less got nothing. If you bid on 35, your offer would set the price for the bunch so you would pay a lot more. On group of 35 had a coin I really wanted so I bid $30 on 34 of the coins hoping that the next bid would be low. It was $10 so I bought 34 for $340 and the other bidder bought one for $10. He might have bid on more or even all 35 but he only got one. I was betting with the odds that the coin I wanted would be in the 34 not in the one pile. That was a nerve racking day. Soon I got a note from the seller saying that the buyer of one really, really wanted the Elagabalus in the lot and would I mind if he sent it to him rather than doing a blind draw. The coin I wanted was a Domna so I agreed and got my coin and 33 others of which I immediately resold 27 for less than $10 each. Since then, I have sold a couple of the others but I gained a few acceptable (to me) denarii and the one I wanted. We no longer see sales like this. I would love to know if the buyer of the Elagabalus still collects and still wants that coin. Can you imagine sales like this working today? I can't. I know sellers that I would trust but I suspect the concept would strike enough people as a lottery that it would be called illegal gambling now. Most coins offered in this way were all the same in someone's mind - wheat cents, war nickels etc. The concept did not fit ancients as well but those were the early days of eBay and details of how things worked were still being worked out.

    How could we now sell ancients not worth individual attention? Is there another way?
     
  8. TheRed

    TheRed Well-Known Member

    I remember those Dutch auctions on eBay fondly. There was a seller from England that would hold Dutch auctions for short-cross, voided long-cross, and long cross pennies that had been halved, quartered, or cut/damaged in some other way. They usually went for a few dollars a coin but were great for learning to identify the different issues and classes. The knowledge I gained and the fun I had were unrivaled in my early collecting days.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  9. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    That is the point. When beginners buy a lot of educational trash, they get an education; when they buy one supercoin, they get something understood by someone else that they can resell for cash when they realize they really don't care. There is nothing wrong with high grade, expensive coins as long as you know more about them than how much they cost.
     
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  10. Milesofwho

    Milesofwho Omnivorous collector

    To me, the joy of buying large lots comes from identification. I like being able to identify what a coin is made out of, who it was made by, and where it was made. I bought a lot of 100 Chinese coins, just because I wanted to try to identify them all. None of them are otherwise much good. I recently purchased a good Byzantine steal on eBay, but it took searching. The majority was either sponsored or overpriced by either hundreds or thousands of dollars. As a result of buying both things, I understand the international nature of Chinese cash, and the interesting design of the Archangel Michael on a Latin issue trachy. Thus, in the end I don’t feel I overpaid. I got even more interesting things out of it than just the coins.
     
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  11. Craig Z

    Craig Z Member

    Any good sources for purchasing large lots of uncleaned and unsorted ancient coins and if so, what the typical cost for such lot is? I just can't see anyway how you can trust someone did not sort through the pile before selling the "uncleaned" lots.
     
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  12. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    As far as I've seen, they are all sorted thru and the good ones are removed before they sell the lots as uncleaned. I no longer buy uncleaned lots, but good luck if you decide to go that route.
     
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  13. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    I agree. That's why I started off collecting by buying uncleaned coins. It was a great way to learn how to ID ancient coins and about ancient Western history in general. The only downside were all the high-end collectors who sneered us for cleaning coins and called them garbage and a waste of money.

    It is true that the "golden age" of cleaning ancient coins has probably past and that coins today are usually well picked over by the time that they are shipped from their source, but if you are just looking to learn about ancient coins and/or like the challenge of IDing late Roman bronzes (LRBs) in rough shape, there are plenty of uncleaned coin sellers out there. Start by buying small lots of 10 or so from someone on eBay. If you like what you receive, remember the seller's name patronize him or her.

    Even 15 or 20 years ago--the so-called golden age--the overwhelming majority of coins that you would receive in an uncleaned lot were low-grade LRBs. The difference was that back then you might also find an occasional F+ Trajan dupondius. Those coins get pulled out today. But cleaning uncleaned coins can still be a good introduction to the hobby.
     
  14. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    @Valentinian, I think you summed up the situation well in your first post. Doug's comments ring true also.
     
  15. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    I really enjoy this discussion - it is good to hear more experienced collectors' opinions on the market and, especially for me, eBay, where I buy most of my ancients.

    Personally, I find eBay bargains can be had, but you have to do a lot of digging - there are so many overpriced lots, ridiculous buy-it-nows, and counterfeits that finding a bargain is difficult. On the other hand, all those useless lots disguise the gems - if you have the time to sort through them...I paid $33 and $15 for the Tarentum didrachm and the Max Thrax sestertius this past March ("buy it now" auctions from a world coin dealer who doesn't often sell ancients):

    Tarentum & Max Thrax Mar 30 2017 (2).JPG Tarentum & Max Thrax Mar 30 2017 (6).JPG

    On the lower end of things, I wanted to share a scruffy "educational" lot that I just got in the mail from eBay. For you more advanced collectors, this is junk, but I have spent several enjoyable hours trying to figure this stuff out - it cost about $10 including shipping:

    eBay Lot $6.99 BIN May 2018.jpg

    The attributions are off - the Trajan asses are close - the Dacian being trampled is a dupondius; the as has Victory, not Mars on the reverse. The Philip is a fourree - foil covering over a copper core. The Gordian III antoninianus is an ancient fake - barbaric is style with remnants of a silver wash over a copper core. Interesting, not worth much, but a lot of fun for me.

    The gem of the lot, I think, is the tiny bronze labeled "Gordian III" - it is, I think, a Diadumenian from Markianopolis - any help would be appreciated:
    Diadumenian from Markianopolis maybe (2).JPG

    Diadumenian from Markianopolis maybe (3).JPG

    Sorry to ramble on so...the point being (if there is a point) that I still find value in bottom feeding on eBay, both in the "good bargain" sense and the "educational" sense. But you have to be willing to sort through a lot of overpriced stuff and fakes. And you have to be willing to take a gamble from inexperienced sellers with poorly-photographed lots (see my recent post about a blue-painted sestertius of Antoninus Pius!)
     
  16. jgusdon

    jgusdon Member

    What a wonderful idea for Cointalk! Maybe this exists but I can't find it. What if we each had a page where we showed coins we would be willing to trade for our wish list of coins. no money transaction -- just trades. Divide into sections -- so that lovers of Byzantine bronze could get to know each other, ect. ect. In the early 60's I used to trade baseball cards with my buddies, actually sold them on the corner as well, Babe and Mickey for 25 cents, my first job, course I ruined them by writing the price on the card. Lots of coins I've collected that I am just not so interested in anymore and don't feel like getting into Ebay selling yet.
     
  17. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    CT has a For Trade board:

    https://www.cointalk.com/forums/trades/

    Plus members on the ancients board frequently announce giveaways.
     
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  18. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Got to love @GDJMSP warning:

    So if you buy anything here, arrange to trade anything here - you're a damn fool !

    LOL...
     
  19. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    IMHO GDJMSP is 100% correct and I'll go farther and say anyone who pays 2 cents for a one cent coin seems a little iffy as well. Today I sent a coin off in the mail to a friend who said he was sending me a check for it today also. I might be out the price of the coin. Fools we are. I will tell you one thing: There are about a dozen of the CT ancients community that would hurt me a great deal more when I found out they were crooks than it would hurt me to lose a VF RR denarius. I'm not worried. I collect coins for a hobby. GDJMSP does not. He runs an Internet facility where he is exposed to the scum of the earth on a daily basis. I correspond on and off list with fiends in Asia, the Caribbean, Canada, Europe and a dozen states I will never again set foot upon. I also collect people - nice people. He fights off hackers and slackers. I hit the Ignore button and people I don't like go away. I like my hobby better than his hobby. I was considering giving away some junk coins a couple years ago but then we had that incident where someone took a CT giveaway and listed it on eBay. I guess that is what I learned out of that is you are a fool to give away something that you value even a little to someone who thinks it is just money. What do you think these things are anyway.......Coins? If only we had a way of separating the people who think coins are just money from those who see them as more. If you found that confusing, you probably disagree with my choice of hobbies.
     
  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I understand your point, I truly do. But do you understand mine ? Allow me to give you an example.

    You're at the grocery store and on your way back to your car you walk past a guy with his trunk open and he says to you - Hey buddy, wanna buy a nice Rolex cheap ?

    So I'll ask you, would you walk over to that guy and buy a watch ? I'm betting that pretty much 100% of you would answer no to that question. And if I asked you why not you say something like - are you kidding ? I don't know that guy, never seen him before, have no idea who is and definitely would never trust a stranger. Only a fool would do such things ! And I'm betting that pretty much 100% of you would give me an answer similar to that.

    So I'll ask you one more question about another scenario. You're here on the forum and you see new ads posted in the ad sections. You see a coin that catches your eye. So you respond to the member offering it. Now you don't know this guy, you've never met this guy, and you have no idea who he is - to you he is a stranger.

    So why then would you even think about making an offer to buy a coin from him ? I mean how are the two scenarios any different ? You definitely think anybody who would buy a watch would be a fool - right ? So then what makes you different when you buy a coin from a perfect stranger ? Are you not also a fool ?

    Ya see, the people who buy watches from that guy are fools. But you also have to remember that guy makes his living doing that. And what does that mean ? It means there's a whole lot of fools out there is what it means. But that thing you don't think about is that a lot of them buy coins.

    Members of this forum buy coins from perfect strangers on a daily basis - and yes that means almost all of you, and yeah I'll add the almost in there because there might be a few who do not. So what is a person who buys a coin from a perfect stranger if not a fool ?

    Now that makes you indignant, to think that I would dare to call you a fool. I get it, it would me too. And your response to me would be something along the lines of I have protection when I buy coins from people I don't know, so there is no risk to me. Well, in many cases but not all that's a false assumption to begin with but I get that too.

    But here's the thing. When you buy a coin from somebody on this forum you have no protection because CT will not become involved in any way - you are 100% on your own. So are you or are you not a fool if you agree to buy, sell, or trade here ?

    Thus the reason for my warning. It's a wake up call folks, designed to get your attention. That warning is the water and you are the horses. But it's up to you to drink it or not.


    edit - Doug was right when he said I do not collect coins, I don't, not anymore anyway. But I did, for almost 50 years. My point being there's not much I don't understand about collecting coins. I've walked in your shoes. In fact I've worn out more pairs of those shoes than I can count. So every possible scenario and explanation for what you do and why you do it - I already know. I lived it - just like you do. So yeah, I get it all. But that doesn't change what I'm telling you.

    All of that said, I am telling you WHAT I am telling you for one reason and only one reason - because I care and I want to help you. And that's why I've dedicated 16 years of my life to helping to run this forum.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
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  21. ValiantKnight

    ValiantKnight Well-Known Member

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