China Pandas - Time to ask the experts

Can someone help me with two questions I have regarding Chinese Panda 10-Y coins? The first photo shows and compares the common reverse between 2017 and 2013. Notice the 2017's image is "frosted" (please pardon me if I'm not using the correct numismatic terminology) with less sharp details, whereas the 2013's image is "shiny" with much more clarity. Look at the stairs for example. Is the 2017 (and I also have 2016 and 2015 which are similar) just a weaker strike vs. the 2013? Or is this some kind of a deliberate style change?

My second question relates to the thickness (see second photo). The thicker coin is the 2013 (1 oz.) and the thinner coin is the 2017 (the mint's newer 30 g version). Since 1 oz. = 28.3 g, shouldn't the coin on the left (2017) be thicker?

Thanks again for some education.

 

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Well I can answer the second ? No an ounce in coin or bullion terms is not 28 grams that is only for pot. Look up a troy Ounce.

 

Never to old to learn something new each day. Thanks.

 

Yeah, a troy ounce, used for precious metals, is 31.1 grams. Can I ask where you bought these? Something doesn't seem right. I have all of them from the last decade, and I have not notice a large difference in thicknesses.

 

There are A LOT of fake pandas out there...

such as this one


Looks just like a real one, but only weighs 20g

Have you weighed your coins?

 

I bought them from BOLD Precious Metals. Among yours from the last decade, can you let me know if the reverse design of the Pagoda Temple are "frosted" as well? Or sharper in detail?

 

Thanks for sharing. And yes, I've weighed them and they're okay (weight-wise at least).

 

Traveling right now, but I would say one trick forgers use is to keep the diameter the same, (to easy to see diameter differences), and make the fakes thicker so the weight is correct.

I would take them to a major coin show and let a panda specialis see them in person. Very difficult to be sure from pictures.

 

Thank you very much for the recommendation. When you're home - and if you remember - would appreciate your letting me know if the reverse of your Pandas are also "frosted". Thanks again.

 

They changed the way they prepared the dies when they went to the 30 gram coin so the fact that one has more frost than the other is ok. I am a little worried about the 2013 date, but it might be the perspective of the way the photo and light are. If you are going to collect pandas you have to get a book by Peter Anthony. Its like a 60 dollar book. I need to get his latest edition and am thinking about posting my copy cheap in the sell forum.

 

Thank you for your insight. I was just reading an Agatha Christie book right before reading your comments and 2 points from the book were coincidentally relevant here! In the chapter I read, there was mention of trusting an expert's feeling that something is not right. Your concern about the 2013 date is indeed warranted. Upon closer examination and comparison, the "1" is not correct. In a geniune coin, the vertical body of the number "1" meets the bottom horizontal serif, in a way that forms two sharp right angles. In the one I posted, there's a radius on each side.
The second point from the chapter was about missing the obvious. Here is where I feel very stupid. All the bamboo stems are missing the circular "seams" that separate the entire stem into segments. These nodal marks are present in the real coin. What a pity - because the reverse design of the Temple is SOOOOO much clearer and sharper than the geniune coin!

 

I need to clarify a statement, to be fair. I was asked where I purchase this coin and I mentioned that I buy my Pandas from BOLD Precious Metals. In this particular case, I did not. It came from an ebay seller (who, by the way, has already refunded my money), NOT from BOLD Precious Metals.

 

Please post photos of the bear so we can see. Close ups if possible.

 

I have 3 from BOLD, all with the "frosted" reverse. This 2013 one didn't - which started my whole thread on this site.

 

All (except for the 3rd from left) photos are of the 2013 fake. I included the 3rd photo here although it's geniune because I want to compare it with the 4th photo of the reverse of the fake coin. See how much clearer and sharper the image is (look at the characters within the rectangular frame) on the fake!!! In the second photo (and I feel so stupid for not noticing earlier), the bamboo stems have no seams.

 

A slightly clearer photo of the 2013 obverse. Embarrassing for me, I know. Hahaha.

 

I’ll be honest I didn’t even look at the temple detail. I looked at the date and stopped. Upon zooming in to the detail on the temple it is too sharp and wrong. The original is frosted so the die is sand blasted which takes some of the detail away.
My guess the hair on the bear is coarse and the detail in the eye could be off.
Their are many panda sites that will help you. It takes time and I’ll be honest I still question my judgement and always have dealers weigh and measure them as I buy them.

 

Many thanks again for your input. I really appreciate them. In a weird sense, I like the reverse of the fake much better! Hahaha. As for the obverse, I wonder how the counterfeiters missed those horizontal nodal marks (the "seams" that separate the bamboo stems into segments) that are so obvious on the geniune coins.

 

Yeah they did miss them wow. Also the detail in the eyes are off and the 1 Oz ag 999 looks odd.

 

Kind of already answered right there with the refund. I am just now able to see the pics on a computer versus a phone. The extreme thickness of the 2013 is a dead giveaway its fake. Then all of the other stuff everyone else has mentioned.

Your comment about like the fake more is common. Many people like the less frosted, clearer details of the fakes over the real things. I have heard that a lot.

I never understood, (though I am glad), why the fakes just don't add lead or something to the metal they use for their fakes so the thickness and weight can both be correct. But they don't, so thickness is always a good way to check authencity along with weight.