Galerius Maximianus bronze follis

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Joseph Sarkissian, Apr 5, 2018.

  1. Joseph Sarkissian

    Joseph Sarkissian Active Member

    Can someone identify this coin exactly? IMG_1037.jpg
    AE25 Galerius AE Follis. 300 AD??. GAL VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES, laureate head right / GENIO POPV-L-I ROMANI, Genius standing left, modius on head, naked except for chlamys over left shoulder, and cornucopiae. S to left, B over P to right.
    Mintmark ALE.

    With the same S, B, P markings it comes up on a coin with Jupiter (Alexandria RIC VI 43b). The closest I can get with a Genio on the reverse is Alexandria RIC VI 44, however in that one the head is facing left instead of right.
    If someone would explain what the markings left and right of Genio mean that would be appreciated. Reignal year?

    I read up on the Maximianus /Galerius coinage confusions in a nice article on forumancientcoins. Trying to make sense of it all, as i have a bunch of coins from both emperors called "Maximianus" I am cataloging. The tetrarchy was an interesting and messy period and needs some attention for an amateur like me.
     
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  3. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    RIC VI Alexandria 35b. A.D. 302-303.

    The markings are used by the mint to differentiate between the different issues Here the B is being used to identify the workdhop (also referred to as officina). This being officina 2.
     
  4. Joseph Sarkissian

    Joseph Sarkissian Active Member

    I found another Galerius similar to this that was silvered. An antoninianus as it is called I guess. The article I read mentioned that Galerius hardly had his folles silvered. Have you come across any examples? @maridvnvm
     
  5. jamesicus

    jamesicus Well-Known Member

    The following heading descriptions (taken from RIC Volume VI) includes the alternate name forms frequently used by collectors, dealers and some authors of historical texts and reference documents:

    DIOCLETIAN ........................ (no other names commonly used)
    MAXIMIAN HERCULIUS ...... Maximianus, Herculius
    CONSTANTIUS .................... Constantius I, Constantius Chlorus
    GALERIUS MAXIMIAN ......... Galerius
    SEVERUS ............................. Severus II,
    MAXIMINUS .......................... Maximinus II, Maximinus Daia, Daza
    CONSTANTINE ..................... Constantine I, Constantinus

    Note: Caution should be exercised when attributing folles of Galerius Maximian (Caius Galerius Valerius Maximianus) & Maximian Herculius (Marcus Aurelius Valerius Maximianus) due to the similarity of their titulature. Galerius Maximian was both Caesar and Augustus during this time period whereas Maximian Herculius was always only Augustus. Therefor coins bearing the titulature MAXIMIANVS plus NOBIL CAES, NOB CAES, NOBIL C, etc., can only be those of Galerius Maximian. There is a special problem with Galerius as Augustus coins: The titulature is mostly exactly the same as that of Maximian Herculius and frequently the only way to differentiate between the two is by the portraiture on the coin obverse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  6. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer


    They were all silvered originally, but now, often have little or none left.
     
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  7. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I don't know what article you read but just in case it was
    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/max.html
    it does not say that 'Galerius hardly had his folles silvered' but that the radiate fractions of the follis (post-reform) were not silvered. Galerius had just as much silver as the other tetrarchs.
    Follis
    ru3980bb1506.jpg

    post reform radiate
    ru3985bb2775.jpg

    If anyone has a post reform radiate with silver, I would enjoy seeing a photo.
     
  8. Joseph Sarkissian

    Joseph Sarkissian Active Member

    @dougsmit got it. Thanks. Your website is amazingly rich. Here is my silvered one, most of the silver remaining on the head but it's not post-reform. IMG_1048.JPG
    Gaius Galerius Valerius Maximianus, 9.85g, 27mm AE follis, Alexandria . 300 AD. GAL VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES, laureate head right / GENIO POPV-L-I ROMANI, Genius standing left, modius on head, naked except for chlamys over left shoulder, holding patera from which liquid flows, and cornucopiae. XX-I across fields, officina letter Γ right field. Mintmark ALE. RIC VI Alexandria 31b. RIC 31b XX-I
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  9. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

  10. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    The post-reform radiate denomination had no intentional silver. If someone has a "silvered" example, it must have been silvered in modern times. Almost all post-reform radiates are, like Doug's, CONCORDIA MILITVM. However, there are common pre-reform radiates (antoniniana, aureliani) with silvering, including many that also say CONCORDIA MILITVM.

    Two pre-reform ants and three post-reform radiates of Diocletian:
    DiocletianCONCORDIAMILITVMmmEd.jpg
    21 mm. 4.02 grams.
    CONCORDIA MILITVM
    emperor standing right, holding short sceptre in left, receiving victory on globe from Hercules left, holding vertical long scepter in left with bow (hanging from his shoulder?)
    EΔ low in middle field (for 9, avoiding Theta, the usual Greek symbol for 9, which was considered a symbol of bad luck because it was used to abbreviate, on legionary roles, thanatos, for deceased)
    •XXI [This "XXI" makes it certain this is pre-reform.]
    IMP C C VAL DIOCLETIANVS AVG
    RIC V.II Diocletian 322 Antioch, p. 256

    DiocletianCONCORDIAMILITVMmmB.jpg
    22 mm. 4.99 grams.
    CONCORDIA MILITVM
    emperor standing right, holding short sceptre in left, receiving victory on globe from Jupiter left, holding vertical long scepter in left.
    B low in middle field, XXI• in exergue
    IMP C C VAL DIOCLETIANVS AVG
    RIC V.II Diocletian 306v, page 253, Cyzicus [RIC does not list it with the dot]

    Note that both of the above have silvering.

    Now for three "post-reform radiates", none of which have silvering:
    DiocletianCONCORDIAMILITVMmmALE.jpg
    First post-reform issue.
    21 mm. 3.21 grams.
    IMP C C VAL DIOCLETIANVS PF AVG
    CONCORDIA MILITVM
    ALE in exergue, Γ in field
    RIC VI Alexandria 46a "c. 296-7"

    DiocletianCONCORDIAMILITVMmmHB.jpg
    21 mm. 2.78 grams.
    HB in field.
    RIC VI Heraclea 13, "c. 295-6".

    DiocletianVOTXX800.jpg

    VOT/XX/FK in wreath (FK for "Felix Karthage)
    RIC VI Carthage 37a "c. 303"

    Pre-reform and post-reform radiates are often not properly distinguished. In antiquity the key difference was that the pre-reform pieces had some silver in the alloy. Silver was worth about 100 times as much as copper by weight, so the 3-4% silver in the interior, plus the 1% or so on the surface, made the coins worth, intrinsically, about four or five times as much as the no-silver post-reform pieces.

    If it has "XXI" it is pre-reform, but not all pre-reform radiates have "XXI". Most post-reform radiates have the CONCORDIA MILITVM reverse, but, as seen above, so do some pre-reform coins. The post-reform coins have larger portrait heads. It seems there was a style change. Look at the two pre-reform coins above and compare their portraits to the later pieces. See the size difference?

    So, if it lacks XXI, lacks silvering, has CONCORDIA MILITVM and has a broad portrait head, it is post-reform.
     
  11. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    That coin is a follis (aka nummis) and is post-reform. In fact, it is the new reform denomination that did have some silver in the alloy. The new radiate (see my post just above) is the denomination that did not have any silver.

    I had the Montana State University Physics Department determine the alloy this coin and others.
    DiocletianGPRXXI800.jpg

    This coin was interesting for being a follis and yet having "XXI" across the field. Obviously, it lacks the original surface-silvering (which would add on the order of 1% to the alloy) and they got 3.96 percent silver below the surface.

    The point is, the post-reform follis actually had some valuable silver in it, much like the pre-reform radiate, but the post-reform radiate did not (intentionally) have silver in it.
     
  12. Joseph Sarkissian

    Joseph Sarkissian Active Member

    •XXI [This "XXI" makes it certain this is pre-reform.]

    Thanks @Valentinian So there are some radiates with XXI which are pre-reform? But then you said my coin is post-reform and yet still silvered. (with the XXI marking and no radiate) As I understand from your post there are radiates that are pre-reform too. How do you finally identify pre- and -post reform then?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  13. Joseph Sarkissian

    Joseph Sarkissian Active Member

    Image-1 (1).jpg
    Here are some more Maximians with some silvering.
    Maximianus, Antioch, AE28 Follis. 10.54g IMP C M A MAXIMIANVS PF AVG, Laureate bust right / GENIO POPVLI ROMANI, Genius standing left, modius on head, naked but for chlamys over left shoulder, right hand holding patera from which liquor flows, and cornucopiae. Right field: Γ Mintmark: ANT dot. RIC VI ? (can't find the exact date and RIC)

    Image-1.jpg

    Maximianus AE Follis. Cyzicus. 297-299 AD. 10.75g AE28 IMP C M A MAXIMIMANVS PF AVG, laureate head right / GENIO POPVLI ROMANI, Genius standing left, naked, but for chlamys over left shoulder (falls low), holding patera from which liquid flows and cornucopiae. Mintmark K epsilon. RIC VI Cyzicus 12b, E; Sear 13269.
     
  14. Valentinian

    Valentinian Well-Known Member

    All radiates with XXI are pre-reform. The follis with XXI you showed is not radiate. All folles are post-reform (The reform introduced the follis denomination). The only question is about tetrarchal (Diocletian, Maximian, Constantius, Galerius) radiates that are c. 21 mm. If it is a radiate that size that lacks XXI, lacks silvering, has CONCORDIA MILITVM and has a broad portrait head, it is post-reform. If it is a radiate with original silvering, it is pre-reform.
     
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  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Your coin is most definitely post-reform. All folles are post reform. The difference between pre-reform and post-reform refers to the smaller, radiate denomination. Pre-reform radiates or antoniniani contained one part silver to 20 parts base metal and often were marked XXI to indicate the alloy. Post reform folles had silver and a few like yours had the XXI alloy mark (most did not). The post reform radiate was a fraction of the follis (probably 2/5?) and there was a smaller post reform laureate coin (1/5?) which did not have silver.
    Samples below:
    Antioch mint officina 9 (5+4 to avoid the unlucky number 9 - theta alone) pre-reform radiate antoninianus with silver wash remaining. At this time Antioch did not use a city mark but only the officina and alloy. This example has silver remaining from the surface wash but many do not and look copper.
    ru3320bb2156.jpg

    Heraclea mint (H) 4th officina (delta) post reform radiate with no silver now or ever. Some post reform mints, including Heraclea, placed both city initial and officina (workshop) in the field.
    ru3390bb1515.jpg

    This laureate has city ALE (Alexandria) in exergue and the officina (A) higher in the field.
    ru3420bb0772.jpg

    Not all mints made every denomination in every period.

    Specialists in this period feel free to post disgreements with my summary above.
     
  16. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I am enjoying the posts... nice explanations and nice coins.

    My Galerius:

    RI Galerius 293-308 AE30mm Folles Ticinum mint Moneta 12g.jpg
    RI Galerius 293-308 AE30mm Folles Ticinum mint Moneta 12g
     
  17. Makanudo

    Makanudo Well-Known Member

    Hey all!

    Are there any written evidence on this joint D & M rule?
     
  18. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

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  19. Johndakerftw

    Johndakerftw Mr. Rogers is My Hero

    Sweet coinage all!

    Here is my Galerius Maximian from the coolest bro on the block, Mr. Jamesicus! It's from the London Mint, 300AD.

    The condition of this coin impresses me every time I see it! Talk about perfect centering.

    Attachment-1 (10).jpeg Attachment-2 (2).jpeg

    Erin
     
  20. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I think the source of confusion is that some of those participating in the thread do not seem to know that "radiate" means "coin where the emperor is wearing a radiate (spiky) crown." If the emperor is wearing a laurel wreath/crown, it's NOT a radiate.

    Looking through this thread, I see folles with a laureate bust being called radiates and I see people baffled as to why folles might be silvered. These misunderstandings might have been avoided had the term "radiate" been explicitly defined (for those who don't know) early in the thread.

    Diocletian pre-reform radiate. Note the spiky, radiate crown on the bust. Note the XXI in the exergue in addition to the officina marking between the figures on the reverse (gamma):

    Diocletian CONCORDIA MILITVM Cyzicus Antoninanus.jpg

    Here's one of Maximian from the same workshop of the same mint and with the same design. It is therefore, of course, pre-reform. It has much original silvering remaining:

    Maximian CONCORDIA MILITVM antoninianus.jpg

    Maximian, pre-reform. Same mint but different workshop. You can't tell by looking at it that it used to be silvered, but it was; the XXI in the exergue says so:

    Maximian CONCORDIA MILITVM antoninianus Cyzicus.jpg

    Now, compare this Diocletian post-reform radiate. Same CONCORDIA MILITVM reverse type. Emperor is wearing a spiky, radiate crown. Note the bigger portrait. Note the ABSENCE of XXI in the exergue. Note there is now a mint mark (eta, the first letter of the Greek spelling of Heraclea) before the workshop number (gamma) between the figures on the reverse. These issues were no longer silvered:

    Diocletian CONCORDIA MILITVM Heraclea post-reform radiate.jpg


    This one is a follis of Galerius. Because the follis denomination arose as a consequence of the currency reform, it is post-reform. But it is NOT a radiate, because the emperor wears a laurel crown, not a radiate crown. It is a different denomination. It was larger than a radiate and it was silvered:

    Galerius GENIO IMPERATORIS follis, Heraclea.jpg
    Galerius, A.D. 305-311.
    Roman AE follis, 26.0 mm, 7.73 g, 12 h.
    Heraclea mint, AD 310-311.
    Obv: IMP C GAL VAL MAXIMIANVS P F AVG, laureate head right.
    Rev: GENIO IMPERATORIS, Genius standing left, holding patera and cornucopia; */HTE Refs: RIC 48a; RCV 14514; Cohen 48.
     
  21. gogili1977

    gogili1977 Well-Known Member

    GALERIUS, as Caesar. 293-305 AD. Æ Follis. Siscia mint. MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES, laureate head right / SACRA MONET AVGG ET CAESS NOSTR, Moneta standing left, holding scales in right hand, cornucopia in left; *-A//SIS. RIC VI 135b.
    122-01.jpg
    GALERIUS (293-305). Follis. Cyzicus. Obv: GAL VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES. Laureate head right. Rev: GENIO AVGG ET CAESARVM NN / KA. Genius standing left, holding patera and cornucopia. RIC 11b.
    122-02.jpg
    GALERIUS (305-311). Follis. Thessalonica. Obv: GAL MAXIMIANVS P F AVG. Laureate head right. Rev: GENIO AVGVSTI / * / B / S M TS. Genius standing left, modius on head, holding patera and cornucopia. RIC 30.
    122-03.jpg
     
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