I have been searching in the books that I have, and on the internet to try and find out more information about this Civil War token, Store card reverse Fuld # 1372. I am not finding very much information about this die, and the different variations for this die number. I know of 5 variations, but not much else, or how to tell them apart, what makes them different and unique ? Does anybody out there know anything about this, or is this something lost in time.
Can you give me a little more information, state, city? It will make it a heck of a lot easier for me to find the die so I know what you're talking about.
The best I can do on this is based on the small black and white pic in Fuld 2 Store Card book. The die is Union Flour and used as a reverse on the D.L. Wing & Co. of Albany N.Y. tokens. Translating into the new Unified Die Number system I come up with Die 28597, see page 306 of Fuld 3 Store Card book. The key is the slight differences on how the wreath joins at the top of the reverse dir. That reverse was only used with obverse die 28540. This makes that token id as NY-010-H-15a, a Rarity 4 token. Fuld 3 notes it was previously NY-010-H-4aa. Edit to add: Picture of Die 28597 from "U.S. Civil War Store Cards", George and Melvin Fuld, Third Edition, Page 306.
Fuld 2 shows 10H-4aa as Obv 3 Rev 3. Rev 3 has the ends of the wreath noticeably apart, the flower ends of the wreath are just thin lines,and the top of the F in FLOUR only comes half way up the leaf to its left. That rev is also used with Obv 2 on 10H-3aa. To tell obv 2 and 3 apart look at the 1 in the address.If it is below or slightly left of being centered below the dimple in the "cloud" it is obv 2. If it is right of the dimple it is obv 3. Also the stars are well above BROADWAY on obv 3. 10H-3aa is also an R-4 token. Fuld 2 shows 6 variations for that rev. Rev 6 has a star between the ends of the wreath. Rev 4 has closed buds at the ends of the wreath,no flowers. On Rev 5 the flowers come together. As I mentioned on 3 the ends are noticeably apart and the flower petals are thin lines. Rev 1 and 2 are very similar, the flower ends are close together but not touching. On reverse 1 the flower petals are thin and spindly, and reverse 2 they are thicker and more substantial. As for why the differences exist, dies wear out. These were not made from hubs, they were actually engraved. So every die is a little different.
Here is the closed Wreath. Here is open wreath (a) Here is closed wreath (b) 1863 Union Flour Civil War Token Grades Choice Unc BNI have 3 variations of the Fuld 1372 Union Flour, I only knew about 5 variations, Thanks for finding a 6th. I only have variations of this die(s), one with the wreath flowers coming together (closed), the other 2 (a & b) (a) is with the wreath flowers apart, and has longer petal lines & (b) with the shorter petals lines. Also on all 3, the bow on the bottom holding the wreath together is different on each one, also the words "Union Flour" seems to be in a different place on all 3. On coin (b) the letter "O" is more pointed at the bottom, and the letter "U" it has points on both sides of the top of the letter. On (a) & on the closed wreath coin the letter "U" only has 2 points on one side 1 point on the other side. These are the differences that I have noticed on the coins that I have. I don't have that book yet, have to get it soon. If you could, can you tell me which variation are the coins that I have. Thanks a lot.
Sorry I downloaded 2 of the same photo for the (a) Open wreath. The 3rd photo is the (b) OPen wreath coin.
Bob Here are the pictures from the 3'd Edition of the Fuld U.S. Civil War Store Cards book, page 306. I highly recommend this book, the research and large clear photos are outstanding. In the case of the Union Flour dies they included a detail picture to illustrate the six wreath details. Union Flour Dies Wreath details on Union Flour Dies
Ignore what I said about the variety with a star between the ends of the wreath that was a union and liberty reverse. However on the dies from the Fuld 3 book I'm not sure if 580 and 585 are different dies or die stages of the same die. One appears to be simply a polished version of the other that has made the flower petals at the ends of the wreath thinner.
WOW ! Thank you very much. I will definity have to get that book and add it my library. I agree with you on the 28580 & 85 being the same die, everything on 585 is in the same position, the bow, the words & letters, way to many similarities. Which would put it back to 5 variation.
Conder 101, no need to ignore about what you said above, about the star between the ends of the wreath reverse, I just came across and purchased an NY010-H-8a with a "1371" 28570 reverse (which is that reverse), it maybe an H-9a. This the first D. L. Wing & Co. coin I have ever seen with this reverse on it. Here are the photo of the coin:
My copy of the 3rd. Ed. Fuld U.S. Civil War Store Cards, has not come in yet, so I am waiting so I can find out more information on this coin.
