RR L. Papius Denarius - Geto-Dacian Monetary Imitations?

Here's something else I know nothing about. An imitation of a Roman Republican denarius (non-serratus in this case) of L Papius 79 BC, Head of Juno Sospita right, wearing goatskin, symbol behind / Gryphon dancing right, symbol below, L PAPI in ex. Crawford 384/1.

It is clearly not an official issue - it is not serratus and the style is pretty crude (Juno here looks a bit like the cartoon character Louise Belcher from Bob's Burgers). Also the obverse symbol doesn't match the 3 bazillion examples I looked at online (but I'm sure I missed some). The metal appears to be good and it is rather heavy at 4.39 grams. It seems too weird to be a modern fake, but please set me straight if it is.

I found Phil Davis's wonderful site on Roman Republican imitations, and from what I can figure, this might be one of the "Class A, Group II Geto-Dacian Monetary Imitations." http://rrimitations.ancients.info/index.html

Any similar examples or additional information, comments, etc. much appreciated.

 

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I bid was watching one of these recently and forgot about it. I like the Papius type. This is quite interesting indeed.

 

Neat addition!

 

It's definitely an imitation, and possibly Geto-Dacian but the Geto-Dacians were only one of several groups making these coins so it's hard to really be sure without knowing the find spot. As far as the symbols, you can't really see the reverse symbol but the obverse symbol looks like a trident which is symbol pair 104 in Crawford(see here or take a look at plate LXVI in Crawford). I really like these imitations and am always on the lookout for them but I've only managed to pick up two so far:

Imitations of Roman Republic coinage, unknown group(possibly Geto-Dacian?), AR denarius(18mm, 3.59g), after 61 B.C. Types of C. Calpurnius Piso Frugi. Laureate head of Apollo right; behind, Π / Horseman right with palm; above, star; below, CΓISOLΓ. Cf. Crawford 408/1a, obv. die 6(Π), rev. die 14(star) for prototype


Imitations of Roman Republic, Eravisci, AR Denarius(18.6mm, 3.31g, 6h), circa 50-20 B.C., mint in modern-day Hungary. Imitating types of C. Postumius. Bust of diana right, bow and quiver on shoulder / Hound running right, spear below. POSTVMI TA(in ligature) in exergue. Freeman 24(this coin), dies 17/P; Davis Class B, Group II Pannonian, Eraviscan E15(these dies); cf. Crawford 394/1a for prototype
Ex RBW Collection(Agora 69, 9/26/2017, lot 1). From a hoard partially published in 1998 in "A group of Eraviscan denarii" by Robert Freeman in "Coins of Macedonia and Rome: Essays in Honour of Charles Hersh".

 

The style looks somewhat similar to some Eraviscan coins.




Mine with a Papius Griffon Reverse (but with a Naevius Balbus type Venus on the Obverse)

 

Nice examples. I initially thought mine was Eraviscan, but it lacks an inscription (although I think there might've been one under the Gryphon - it is very worn and all I can make out is an "O" - my photos don't show this).

But arnoldoe's examples make me wonder if maybe it is Eraviscan? That second example in particular has a similar look. I've been studying these for about 24 hours so I have a lot to learn!

 

I would be very surprised if yours were Eravisci. Eraviscan material is fairly well documented, the number of dies relatively small and the number of surviving examples from each die seemingly higher than any series I've studied the dies of. Your coin on the other hand is from dies I could not find in my photofile nor could I find a die match on ACSearch, in the literature I have access to or elsewhere.

 

Yeah, the Eraviscan stuff was very highly documented, so I found in my initial research.

Beyond that I couldn't find a match to mine either - which means mine might be just a modern, inept Roman Republican fake. I am pretty sure it is die struck and not a cast.

More thoughts on the control symbols - looking at Crawford again, I am not so sure this isn't a blundered version of Plate LXVI No. 105 (rather than 104) - with the obverse symbol (cauldron?) upside-down and the reverse symbol the correct "knife" - only the blade is visible on mine (under the gryphon's front legs), but it sure looks like that Crawford plate.

 

Well, hmmmm...

@red_spork got me a-thinkin' on my Crazy-Man Cato Quinarius. However, I went through @Volodya 's cool site. So far, nothing shows up.


RR Porcius Cato AR Quinarius 89 BC Bacchus Liber Victory seated Sear 248 Craw 343-2

I am beginning a theory that the Mayans from the Yucatan, crossed Mexico and built a boat in 88 BCE. They went on and crossed the Pacific to China. Then followed the Silk-Road to Germany with the sole intent of knocking off this Quinarius... yeah, probably Mexican Silver.

Maybe I need some help...

 

My gut feeling is that yours is ancient and I'd have no reservations about it. I am far from an expert but have spent a good bit of time studying these through hoard reports, papers and looking at the coins that come onto the market as well as discussing them with collectors and while there are definitely fakes out there masquerading as imitations of RR coins, yours is entirely consistent with coins I've seen which I believe to be authentic. The dies for these imitatives were in most cases apparently very short lived so the fact that you can't find a match is not in itself worrying.

 

That's really interesting!

 

Thank you, red_spork - I appreciate the thumbs up on this. I will continue to look around for additional information on it. A similar example would be nice to find, but it seems there are many types out there.

 

Eraviscan is what struck me too, both the type selection and the style, but the Eraviscan dies are so well known that we can't simply assume that, even as a working hypothesis, without more examples and more evidence.

 

So I've been re-reading old papers and seeking out any new papers and images I can find regarding the Eastern European imitations of Roman Republic denarii and I came across a particular imitation in M. Torbagyi's "Die Münzprägung Der Eravisker" that I knew rang a bell but I couldn't remember where from until I came across this thread again this morning. A coin from what appears to be the same dies is illustrated as B/6d. Most of the coins illustrated in the paper are from the Lágymános hoard found in Hungary and I would agree are likely Eraviscan but B/6d is instead from the coin cabinet of the Hungarian National Museum and unfortunately has no find spot recorded. As the scope of the museum's collection spans an area much larger than Hungary's modern borders(far into Romania and other bordering countries) it's quite possible it was found outside of Hungary itself, so unfortunately we're not any closer to being able to say with any real certainty which group created it. At any rate, it's a very interesting coin and made all the more interesting now that a die match is known and that the die match is serrate while yours is not, which is not extremely surprising as these groups were somewhat inconsistent in that regard but it's an interesting footnote.

Below I've attached scans of the relevant sections of Torbagyi. PM me if you want a scan of the whole thing. Also note, "Unbekannter Fundort" just means "unknown findspot".

 

No problem at all Mike. I'm honestly glad I could help shed a bit of light on this coin for you and thank you for sharing this photo of this most interesting coin. I am slowly building up a photofile of all the imitations of Roman Republic denarii I can find images of. Many of the die pairs are known to me from only a single example and because these coins are often imperfectly struck, a single coin sometimes only tells half the story. Your coin adds important information because much of the area that is obscured on the Hungarian Museum example is full raised on yours, so by looking at both I can get a much better idea of what the entire design looks like which is absolutely crucial when looking for evidence of things like recut dies and looking for the tiny stylistic hints that might suggest that a common engraver was responsible for multiple dies.

Again thank you very much for sharing this image and this coin. If I find anything else out regarding this type I will certainly let you know.

 

One more thought on this coin that I had while reviewing my current notes on denarius imitations last night: So far as I am aware of, there are no known serrate Eravisci imitations. None listed in Freeman, Torbagyi (except the die match to this coin), ACSearch(at least none that I consider to be Eraviscan) or Davis's site. The Eravisci certainly copied types whose official prototypes were originally serrate but they don't seem to have made serrations on their own coins. This is, I think, even stronger evidence that this coin is from another group. Unfortunately I still haven't found anything that I can confidently link it to based on style or a die link, but I'll keep looking.

 

I've got now too It seems to be #20 from the Freeman paper. It was in the Agora auction at the end of January and finally arrived last week (bad photos!):

 

Nice one, akeady. This is such an interesting series.