Two coins came in today, and I need some assistance on varieties and possible errors. 1. 1800 Draped Bust Large Cent. S-203, according to ANACS. The damage looks like an off center strike. But I suspect it is a vice job. I need your opinion. The reverse has an image of the obverse draped bust, inverted. But it's gotta be a vice job, right? 2. 1802 Draped Bust Large Cent. I mainly just need variety help on this one. I think it may straight grade F15 or VF20. Thanks!
2. 1802 Draped Bust Large Cent. I mainly just need variety help on this one. I think it may straight grade F15 or VF20. Thanks! View attachment 749729 [/QUOTE] Looks like an S-230 to me.
I think you are right on vice job on #1. If it were a real clashed die then the OF wouldn't be wiped out, My opinion only...
I'm sure you know the rev. clash at "OF" is a hallmark of 1800 S-203. The denticle-looking marks on the obv. could be post-strike damage. I cannot tell if the obv. marks are incuse or projecting outward. They do not curve the right way for multiple strikes in my opinion. Image of the known S-203 reverse compared to yours included.
I concur on the 1802 as S-230. On the 1800, the S-203 looks right with your coin being a later Die State than the comp posted with the die break stronger and more pronounced. Some PMD appears to have occurred because the F in OF is usually protected somewhat by the incused bust. So a vice or pliars may have been used at some point, but probably not to produce the incused bust.
Thank you all. This place is the best and I appreciate members like you. I learn something just about every day.
Yes the 1800 S-203 is almost always seen with that heavy die clashing on the reverse. It damaged the reverse and caused the die to sink there at OF. There are some other reverse dies in the Draped bust series that show the same clashing and sinking at OF. The 1802 is damaged at the date and IS S-230. The die stage is interesting though as I have never seen an example that doesn't have the strong die crack below STATES and above the wreath. Breen mentions a perfect die stage with no cracks but I have never seen one.
I have never heard the phrase "perfect die stage." Does that mean "prime die state?" Is there a separate Breen number/description for it? Thanks.
Yes basically the same thing, a perfect die before any cracks or other defects develop. (That is if I understand what "prime die state" means" which I am not familiar with. It would be referenced as S-230 Stage I. One problem is that people use the terms state and stage interchangeably which is not correct (Like they use die crack and die break interchangeably and incorrectly.) Die state refers to the amount of wear a die has received and it is a continuum. Die stage refers to specific discrete changes in the die. The die is in one stage,then something happens (a crack, clash, polishing etc.) and it is in another stage.
I found this one in the Heritage Archives from January 2006. It appears to have the perfect obverse and the very beginnings of the reverse crack, particularly at the top right leaf to the middle of the triplet below. Perhaps Stage Ib?
Is the reverse die of S-203 paired with any other obverse die where the clash does not exist? Certainly there must be coins produced by this die before the clash occurred.
According to Noyes, this is the first use of this die. It was used on the S-203 and the 1801 NC-1 (1801 Reverse B). This is why I love Noyes Die (Stages - Noyes actually avoids the confusion by simply not labeling the changes, he just gives them new letters throughout the die's life.) He gives A, B, C, D and E as S-203 pairings and E and F as 1801 NC-1 pairings. There are several dies which are not see perfect. This can occur because the damage or clashing occured before any coins were produced. Or, they might not have found the few produced before the damage or clashing happened.
THe thing that kinda-sorta looked like a double-strike on the obverse of the 1800 has to be damage. There is no way those dies could have produced those impressions.
I think they could. But the apparent dentils would have to be the space between dentils so the curvatures works. Perhaps a blank was barely in the press, being struck at least three times before being properly seated in the press. This should produce this effect, especially since a mirror image appears on the reverse after allowing for die rotation. I'm not saying this is what happened, but I think it could.