Grading Ruined Coin

I don't have a problem with dipping coins. I won't ever dip my own, and I do consider them being "cleaned" but I don't find that unethical.

However, taking a problem toner, dipping/cleaning it, and then selling it to someone knowing full well it will become ugly again....come on. That is a little dishonest absolutely. And the toning will definitely return, in some cases, within weeks. No different than painting over stains on ceilings to hide water damage.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Do you honestly believe that dipped coins will tone differently or more quickly than freshly minted coins? Two things to be considered in dipping is the pre-treatment of the coins and the post-treatment. Start off clean and get rid of any trace of the dipping chemicals and you have a clean, fresh surface which is no different from a freshly minted surface.

 

Because I know some dealers at the monthly shows in Buffalo who openly talk about getting rid of some pieces they are stuck with. They also flat out lie about coins that have been cleaned despite showing scuff marks and whizzing. I know many of you are dealers and sellers, and many like to criticize buyers who scam dealers. But there are also quite a lot of dishonest sellers who take advantage of buyers.

 

It’s actually very different from painting over water stains, like night and day different and not even in the same ballpark different. You’re making some very wrong assumptions about what is happening/will happen which I can see how the bad information is leading you to those conclusions.

Dipping a questonable color toner back to life is the best thing you can do for an ugly toned coin if it’s possible to do it on that coin.

 

Not at all. But I'm not talking about newly dipped ones. I have a 2017 $50 buffalo that already has red toning and it is slabbed. I am specifically talking about dipping ugly toned coins and then selling them to others knowing they will retone.

 

I guess we just disagree. I have heard and seen what some of those dealers do. They do it to hide it and deceive. No different from paint-overs if the intent is to deceive the buyer.

Does everyone do it for that reason? No. Can dipping help preserve it? Yes. I just don't want to be the one having to keep dipping it every so often. And neither do they, hence their motivation.

 

This. Painting over water stains would be like applying putty or using artificial toning methods to conceal hairlines.

Dipping a coin can be done properly to conserve the coin, but it can also damage a coin if done improperly. It mostly depends on the would-be dipper determining correctly whether or not the coin is a good candidate for dipping.

You can also properly dip a coin, conserve it well, and have it come out with eye appeal that is "off". I don't consider these to be problem coins, but ones like this that I have in my collection, I try to upgrade. I consider these to be conspicuously dipped coins.

 

You have a lot more to learn about dipping if you think it hides anything. Not trying to be rude but when you say someone dips something to hide something you’ve got a lot left to learn and have pobably gotten some very bad information at some point.

 

I am saying *some* people dip them for that reason...some...not everyone. And I never said, and don't disagree, that dipping coins can actually help preserve some coins. Not sure why the tangents here on my comments here.

I have seen personally some of their coins before in slabs and after they resubmitted them in new slabs. And I have seen the toning come back in more than a few. In the same areas. Not sure why, but especially for Peace dollars.

I know and respect the dialogue here and understand why some think I am uninformed. But I know what I saw with my own eyes and what I heard with my own ears. I am not imagining it.

 

You’re missing the point though, what’s making you come off as uninformed is that you’re saying some dealers dip coins to hide something. Dipping doesn’t hide anything, by removing the toning it actually exposes more than before. As was Pointed out above by @Jaelus if you want to hide something you putty it or tone it heavily not strip the surface exposing it all.

Plenty of people here have coins that were dipped many years ago and look essentially the same. Maybe the dealer you’re seeing doesn’t know what he’s doing and doesn’t know how to rinse them, regardless of what it is no one dips a coin to hide anything.

 

I'm sure some people dip coins with deceptive intent. I'm also sure some of those people don't know how to post-treat the coins to remove active agents, so their coins will re-tone (badly), regardless of what steps the buyer takes. (For that matter, I've been in a shop in the last ten years that was so smoky I couldn't stand to stick around. Some people don't seem to care much about "environmental conditions".)

I suspect the OP's coin had some "stuff" on it from the album, and it continued to react with that "stuff" even after it was slabbed. I'll bet, although there's no way to prove it now, that a thorough soak in distilled water and then in acetone would have slowed the process, maybe enough to keep the coin looking nice for the next generation or two.

It's also possible that the OP's coin could still be rescued if it's cracked, dipped, and rinsed.

 

It was PCGS. I was trying to find a picture I took of it before submitting it because I know I took one. I will post a before and after if I can find it.

It may not be as bad as I thought, now that I look at it again. However, from some of the comments, it seems that you are definitely taking a risk if you take a toned coin out of it's existing environment and into a different environment (slabbed or other). If you buy a slabbed toned coin that has been that way for a few years you are probably safe that it won't change much.

 

Suggestion, visit us in the ancient coins section and learn to enjoy unslabbed coins and stop worrying so much about toning, marks, and other imperfections, and start enjoying the coins and the hobby itself.

Dark toning:



uneven toning:



no toning:



colorful toning:



Who cares? If it gets darker, or more spotty, who cares...its still the same special coin. Learn to enjoy the coins themselves and not obsess too much over the things that can't be helped. Numismatics is a beautiful hobby, so why complicate it so much?

 

This is a common problem when discussing dishonesty. Different folks have different ideas about what is and isn't honest and hold on fast to those ideas.

Is dipping honest? It all depends on your own perspective on dipping.

In coppers, ancients prize a protective layer that moderns consider verdigris and despised. And these same people consider toning an embellishment.

The best solution is to simply say they are expertly dipped (if true) for conservation/restoration purposes. That way the information is out there for whatever position the buyer might take.

 

There are no absolutes. Coins are made of metals that react to the environment to some degree or another. That beautiful coin in cardboard that has developed lovely toning won't stay that way unless it is preserved with an inert gas housing which keeps the coin surfaces separate from any non inert contamination. Keeping it in the environment which produced the toning just means it will continue toning until or unless it creates it's own protective environment free from chemical ions in non inert gases.

 

You're right...we all have a different ethical barrier. But, what we can't really argue is what is commonly considered normal behavior in this field.

Now, my comments mostly relate to silver coinage...I don't know a ton about copper so I will yield to the experts there. Dipping to remove toning is a normal practice and it isn't unethical because it can't be. Dipping doesn't hide anything. It is impossible to dip a coin to mask problems. It's not a short term fix that reverts. If anything, dipping uncovers problems that the toning has hid.

Some people prefer coins to be as original as possible...they like that vintage patina on their coins and that's a perfectly fine preference. Others want a blast white coin. Both are acceptable ways to collect and neither has any real ethical connection.

I guess I'm a little puzzled as to why ethics is even being brought into this discussion. All I can figure is that you simply don't understand what dipping is or how it works. Dipping literally removes a small layer of molecules from the coin. So, it can't hide flaws. When chosen correctly, the coin's eye appeal will improve but there is nothing artificial about it. It was always there and was simply hidden. When chosen poorly...it makes flaws far more evident (sometimes toned problem free coins turn out to actually have problems masked by the toning).

If you want to discuss ethics...how about this. It's a fairly common practice to take coins that have minor issues (light improper cleaning, ect) and put them in the environment that promotes toning (place them on a window sill, in a wooden desk) for an extended period of time. The goal is to tone them...to hide the flaws. To me, that could be a bigger ethical issue than removing toning.

The belief that dipped coins will suddenly revert or are more susceptible to retone isn't really accurate. They are more prone to toning that a toned coin...because the surface is fresher but it is not different than a newly minted coin.

 

You are correct however the trouble is...I don't know of any company that makes "inert gas housings" for coins.

 

Yes you are probably right. Focusing on a coin's other qualities makes more sense. However, I don't know anything about ancient coins. Only really know about US coins (and always learning).

 

This is exactly where each of us posting in the ancient forum began. There are many web sites that provide education and advice. I recommend:

http://augustuscoins.com/ed/numis/

You could also go to the ancient forum and read a few of the posts. It will seem like a mystery at first, but mysteries are interesting.